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Did you read the referenced article? It explains how to do what you want.
And note that AFAIK you have received no "response by Microsoft," certainly
not from me; I do not work for Microsoft.
My comment that the behavior of section breaks has not changed in Word 2003
was in response to your complaint that "I hate Microsoft Word 2003. It seems
like they have really made it less user friendly." Many things may have
changed or become less user-friendly in Word 2003, but the behavior of
section breaks is not one of them.
--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
"Ken S." <Ken S.@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:1313F689-3EB8-428F-989C-448A70AC17C0@microsoft.com...
> The response by Microsoft to simply indicate that "the behavior of Word
> 2003
> hasn't changed" is well...very, very stupid indeed. The obvious response
> to
> a customer using one's product is to give them clear and concises
> instructions on how to solve their problem. But Microsoft failed to
> understand this and instead simply indicated that the behavior of Word
> 2003
> has not changed! Daaa! How 'bout providing a an answer to actual help
> the
> person. Here I am with the same problem: I can't figure out how to delete
> a
> section but still keep the format of the "preceding" section. There is no
> help or instructions rendered by Microsoft in this regard. That reallly
> sucks!! And so does Suzanne's response!
>
> "Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote:
>
>> This behavior has not changed in Word 2003. See
>> http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Formatting/WorkWithSections.htm
>>
>> --
>> Suzanne S. Barnhill
>> Microsoft MVP (Word)
>> Words into Type
>> Fairhope, Alabama USA
>> Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
>> Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup
>> so
>> all may benefit.
>>
>> "Kate Stiteler" <Kate Stiteler@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in
>> message
>> news:4D88F19B-9AA5-4B66-8A38-C87D26DB82DB@microsoft.com...
>> > First, let me say that I hate Microsoft Word 2003. It seems like they
>> > have
>> > really made it less user friendly.
>> >
>> > I use a lot of Section Breaks when drafting reports. Generally I have
>> > page
>> 1
>> > with one header and footer, which I end with a continuous section
>> > break,
>> > followed by subsequent pages with no header and page number footers. I
>> then
>> > will use a page section break, and start the process again with a
>> different
>> > header.
>> >
>> > Well, I now find that when I delete a continuous section break to
>> > insert
>> it
>> > elsewhere, the page section break above it is ALSO deleted, and then
>> > impossible to put back in. This annoying fluke is the bane of my
>> existence.
>> > Any help?
>>
>>
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Ms. Barnhill -
Did you read the e-mails posted here? Do you realize that there were two
separate posters (Kate Stiteler and Ken S.) and not one?
I understand that you are a Word MVP and do not work for Microsoft. And for
what it’s worth, my thanks go to you and other “volunteers” for the time you
devote to trying to explain Microsoft’s flawed products. But, to claim that
your post is not representative of Microsoft is disingenuous at best. I
linked to this thread on Microsoft’s website by clicking a link in the Help
program for Microsoft Word. So although you may not be a Microsoft employee,
Microsoft is definitely using you to try to defend and explain their poor
product. Why can’t Microsoft themselves respond to this question about their
own product? Why do they need to rely on non-employees to explain their
product? Regarding Ken S.’s post, regardless of your status with respect to
Microsoft, this thread is a “response by Microsoft” and a poor one at that.
I had a similar question as Ken S. about the major annoyance of deleting a
section break and losing all of the formatting of the section that I am
keeping. I read the article that you linked to, but I did not find it to be
very helpful. For one thing, the article did not specifically address Ken's
(and my) question about deleting a section break without losing the section
formatting that precedes that break. Basically, the take-home message is
that there is no solution for this problem other than formatting the second
section to exactly match the first section before deleting the section break.
Regardless of your (and other MVP’s) good intentions, the fact remains that
Word is a flawed product and this section break nonsense makes no sense at
all. In most cultures where Word and other Microsoft products are sold,
people write from beginning to end. We write a section, format it, create a
section break, and then repeat. Why on earth should we lose the formatting
for the first section when we delete the section break? A section break is
created when we want a new section, but why is that section break for the new
section suddenly imbued with the properties and formatting of the preceding
section? That makes no sense. Look at it this way – if I have a one-section
document with no section breaks, I can apply formatting to that section,
right? So why does everything change and all of the formatting for that
section is suddenly applied to a section break that I happen to insert at the
end of that section?
One more complaint and then my rant will be over: I tried to reply to this
thread inside the Word Help window, but it didn’t work (natch). I had to go
online with my favorite browser (Opera, obviously not IE) to find this thread
so that I could reply.
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The article to which I referred you (both) has a section specifically about
how to preserve section formatting when deleting material at the end of a
document. Since the mvps.org server is currently down, I can't point you to
the specific section, but it is toward the end.
The article explains the way section formatting works. This understanding is
basic to working with sections. When you have only a single section, the
section formatting is held in the final paragraph mark. When you insert a
section break, it holds the formatting for the previous section, and the
final paragraph mark holds the formatting for the final section. If you want
to delete the section break (and the material following it), you must copy
its formatting to the last section first.
Microsoft does provide paid support for users. Free support is provided
through these NGs. I don't feel any need to support a "poor product." It is
a poor workman who blames his tools; you view Word as a "poor product"
because you are unwilling to learn how to use it.
You will also find, it you want to use these NGs regularly, that an NNTP
newsreader such as Outlook Express makes this far easier; see
http://www.gmayor.com/MSNews.htm
--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
"Steve H" <Steve H@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:C8B89AD2-4C3D-452E-9194-7774818B04F7@microsoft.com...
> Ms. Barnhill -
>
> Did you read the e-mails posted here? Do you realize that there were two
> separate posters (Kate Stiteler and Ken S.) and not one?
>
> I understand that you are a Word MVP and do not work for Microsoft. And
> for
> what it's worth, my thanks go to you and other "volunteers" for the time
> you
> devote to trying to explain Microsoft's flawed products. But, to claim
> that
> your post is not representative of Microsoft is disingenuous at best. I
> linked to this thread on Microsoft's website by clicking a link in the
> Help
> program for Microsoft Word. So although you may not be a Microsoft
> employee,
> Microsoft is definitely using you to try to defend and explain their poor
> product. Why can't Microsoft themselves respond to this question about
> their
> own product? Why do they need to rely on non-employees to explain their
> product? Regarding Ken S.'s post, regardless of your status with respect
> to
> Microsoft, this thread is a "response by Microsoft" and a poor one at
> that.
>
>
> I had a similar question as Ken S. about the major annoyance of deleting a
> section break and losing all of the formatting of the section that I am
> keeping. I read the article that you linked to, but I did not find it to
> be
> very helpful. For one thing, the article did not specifically address
> Ken's
> (and my) question about deleting a section break without losing the
> section
> formatting that precedes that break. Basically, the take-home message is
> that there is no solution for this problem other than formatting the
> second
> section to exactly match the first section before deleting the section
> break.
>
>
> Regardless of your (and other MVP's) good intentions, the fact remains
> that
> Word is a flawed product and this section break nonsense makes no sense at
> all. In most cultures where Word and other Microsoft products are sold,
> people write from beginning to end. We write a section, format it, create
> a
> section break, and then repeat. Why on earth should we lose the
> formatting
> for the first section when we delete the section break? A section break
> is
> created when we want a new section, but why is that section break for the
> new
> section suddenly imbued with the properties and formatting of the
> preceding
> section? That makes no sense. Look at it this way - if I have a
> one-section
> document with no section breaks, I can apply formatting to that section,
> right? So why does everything change and all of the formatting for that
> section is suddenly applied to a section break that I happen to insert at
> the
> end of that section?
>
> One more complaint and then my rant will be over: I tried to reply to
> this
> thread inside the Word Help window, but it didn't work (natch). I had to
> go
> online with my favorite browser (Opera, obviously not IE) to find this
> thread
> so that I could reply.
>
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Ms. Barnhill -
My question was this: is there a way to delete a section break and keep the
formatting in the preceding section without having the formatting
automatically changed to match the second, deleted section? Based on my own
experience, the only way I knew how to do it was to re-format the section
after deleting the page break.
I read through the entire linked document again. While you are correct that
the article does address this question, it offers no solution other than what
I have already figured out. Basically, the answer is that there is no way to
delete a section break without having the formatting of the second section
replace the formatting of the first section.
Now, the article did offer some tricks or (not so very short) shortcuts,
like copying the section break to the end of the next section prior to
deleting the section break. But that is just a trick, as you are still left
with an unwanted section break. If you then try to delete that unwanted
section break, the formatting change happens anyway. The article offered
another solution, in which you change the formatting of the second section to
match the formatting of the first section before you delete the section
break. But you still have to reformat, right? Regardless of when you do it,
the bottom line is that if you want to delete a section break between two
sections with different formats, you are going to have to reformat something.
Personally, I was hoping that there was some way to change the default
settings so that when deleting a page break, the preceding format is
maintained, which seems a lot more logical to me. However, there is nothing
in that article or in what you have written that provides any answer to the
question other than to say “that’s just the way it is” while offering some
unsatisfactory shortcuts.
I will acknowledge that the article you linked to did provide an explanation
about how sections work in Word; I learned a lot and I am grateful. But, at
the same time, the article left me even more bewildered about how illogical
this “design” is. I don’t think it makes me a “poor workman” to offer
criticism, but if you think it does, then so be it. Microsoft’s products
like Office and Internet Explorer are popular because of Windows bundling and
Microsoft’s business practices. Word is the “default” word processing
program, and it has very little to do with the quality of the program itself.
I can think of several better-designed word processing programs and I would
use those tools if I could.
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The alternative to reformatting after deleting the section break is to copy
the formatting of the next-to-last section into the last section before
deleting the break. If it's just a matter of margins and other settings in
Page Setup, then this is done quite easily:
1. Place the insertion point in the next-to-last section.
2. Open Page Setup. Without making any changes, click OK.
3. Now move the insertion point to the last section and press F4. This will
copy the Page Setup settings you just made in the previous section.
For an example of how this works, see
http://sbarnhill.mvps.org/WordFAQs/DetachEnvelope.htm.
If there are headers and footers involved, you'll need to unlink the last
section so that it inherits the headers/footers from the previous section.
--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
"Steve H" <SteveH@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:FCD3D81F-07A2-4950-B40A-67A41EDBB6CD@microsoft.com...
> Ms. Barnhill -
>
> My question was this: is there a way to delete a section break and keep
> the
> formatting in the preceding section without having the formatting
> automatically changed to match the second, deleted section? Based on my
> own
> experience, the only way I knew how to do it was to re-format the section
> after deleting the page break.
>
> I read through the entire linked document again. While you are correct
> that
> the article does address this question, it offers no solution other than
> what
> I have already figured out. Basically, the answer is that there is no way
> to
> delete a section break without having the formatting of the second section
> replace the formatting of the first section.
>
> Now, the article did offer some tricks or (not so very short) shortcuts,
> like copying the section break to the end of the next section prior to
> deleting the section break. But that is just a trick, as you are still
> left
> with an unwanted section break. If you then try to delete that unwanted
> section break, the formatting change happens anyway. The article offered
> another solution, in which you change the formatting of the second section
> to
> match the formatting of the first section before you delete the section
> break. But you still have to reformat, right? Regardless of when you do
> it,
> the bottom line is that if you want to delete a section break between two
> sections with different formats, you are going to have to reformat
> something.
>
> Personally, I was hoping that there was some way to change the default
> settings so that when deleting a page break, the preceding format is
> maintained, which seems a lot more logical to me. However, there is
> nothing
> in that article or in what you have written that provides any answer to
> the
> question other than to say "that's just the way it is" while offering some
> unsatisfactory shortcuts.
>
> I will acknowledge that the article you linked to did provide an
> explanation
> about how sections work in Word; I learned a lot and I am grateful. But,
> at
> the same time, the article left me even more bewildered about how
> illogical
> this "design" is. I don't think it makes me a "poor workman" to offer
> criticism, but if you think it does, then so be it. Microsoft's products
> like Office and Internet Explorer are popular because of Windows bundling
> and
> Microsoft's business practices. Word is the "default" word processing
> program, and it has very little to do with the quality of the program
> itself.
> I can think of several better-designed word processing programs and I
> would
> use those tools if I could.
>
>
>
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While appreciating and acknowledging the great work that you (Suzanne) and
other MVPs do in supporting the Microsoft user community, I must reprove you
for your words, "a poor workman...blames his tools; you view Word as a poor
product because you are unwilling to learn how to use it."
I have been a user of Word since version 2 and probably know as much about
it as you do. I am a great fan of many of its features, but Microsoft's
decision about how to handle section breaks and their deletion is simply
wrong. It is (a) counter-intuitive, and (b) puts the user to a great deal of
work to right the wrong, in what is supposed to be and generally is a
productivity tool! It doesn't matter whether the work-around is documented or
not - it shouldn't be needed at all.
Conceptually, it would not be difficult for Microsoft to add an object to
the Word object model, as a property of the Document object. Let's call the
new object "SectionsInSequence". It would keep track of section formatting in
the order that users intuitively expect it to be tracked, and when a section
was deleted would re-apply the formatting of the preceding section, not the
one that had gone. That is, the SectionsInSequence object would automatically
apply the workaround instead of leaving it to the user.
Best regards.
"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote:
> The article to which I referred you (both) has a section specifically about
> how to preserve section formatting when deleting material at the end of a
> document. Since the mvps.org server is currently down, I can't point you to
> the specific section, but it is toward the end.
>
> The article explains the way section formatting works. This understanding is
> basic to working with sections. When you have only a single section, the
> section formatting is held in the final paragraph mark. When you insert a
> section break, it holds the formatting for the previous section, and the
> final paragraph mark holds the formatting for the final section. If you want
> to delete the section break (and the material following it), you must copy
> its formatting to the last section first.
>
> Microsoft does provide paid support for users. Free support is provided
> through these NGs. I don't feel any need to support a "poor product." It is
> a poor workman who blames his tools; you view Word as a "poor product"
> because you are unwilling to learn how to use it.
>
> You will also find, it you want to use these NGs regularly, that an NNTP
> newsreader such as Outlook Express makes this far easier; see
> http://www.gmayor.com/MSNews.htm
>
> --
> Suzanne S. Barnhill
> Microsoft MVP (Word)
> Words into Type
> Fairhope, Alabama USA
>
> "Steve H" <Steve H@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:C8B89AD2-4C3D-452E-9194-7774818B04F7@microsoft.com...
> > Ms. Barnhill -
> >
> > Did you read the e-mails posted here? Do you realize that there were two
> > separate posters (Kate Stiteler and Ken S.) and not one?
> >
> > I understand that you are a Word MVP and do not work for Microsoft. And
> > for
> > what it's worth, my thanks go to you and other "volunteers" for the time
> > you
> > devote to trying to explain Microsoft's flawed products. But, to claim
> > that
> > your post is not representative of Microsoft is disingenuous at best. I
> > linked to this thread on Microsoft's website by clicking a link in the
> > Help
> > program for Microsoft Word. So although you may not be a Microsoft
> > employee,
> > Microsoft is definitely using you to try to defend and explain their poor
> > product. Why can't Microsoft themselves respond to this question about
> > their
> > own product? Why do they need to rely on non-employees to explain their
> > product? Regarding Ken S.'s post, regardless of your status with respect
> > to
> > Microsoft, this thread is a "response by Microsoft" and a poor one at
> > that.
> >
> >
> > I had a similar question as Ken S. about the major annoyance of deleting a
> > section break and losing all of the formatting of the section that I am
> > keeping. I read the article that you linked to, but I did not find it to
> > be
> > very helpful. For one thing, the article did not specifically address
> > Ken's
> > (and my) question about deleting a section break without losing the
> > section
> > formatting that precedes that break. Basically, the take-home message is
> > that there is no solution for this problem other than formatting the
> > second
> > section to exactly match the first section before deleting the section
> > break.
> >
> >
> > Regardless of your (and other MVP's) good intentions, the fact remains
> > that
> > Word is a flawed product and this section break nonsense makes no sense at
> > all. In most cultures where Word and other Microsoft products are sold,
> > people write from beginning to end. We write a section, format it, create
> > a
> > section break, and then repeat. Why on earth should we lose the
> > formatting
> > for the first section when we delete the section break? A section break
> > is
> > created when we want a new section, but why is that section break for the
> > new
> > section suddenly imbued with the properties and formatting of the
> > preceding
> > section? That makes no sense. Look at it this way - if I have a
> > one-section
> > document with no section breaks, I can apply formatting to that section,
> > right? So why does everything change and all of the formatting for that
> > section is suddenly applied to a section break that I happen to insert at
> > the
> > end of that section?
> >
> > One more complaint and then my rant will be over: I tried to reply to
> > this
> > thread inside the Word Help window, but it didn't work (natch). I had to
> > go
> > online with my favorite browser (Opera, obviously not IE) to find this
> > thread
> > so that I could reply.
> >
>
>
> |
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Suzanne,
Thank you for your help, as I have a similar problem. Please don't take my
comments as a personal attack, but I hope that you can gain perspective from
them. I also want to comment that I'm sure it is difficult to deal with
people who are frustrated by not being able to do the things that they are
trying to do because they haven't learned the right way to accomplish them.
But Microsoft sells Office as a 'Productivity Tool', aims it at the business
market and charges PREMIUM prices for their products. Microsoft has been
marketing Office Products as simple to use, so that any one can pick them up
and get things done. Most of the people who are now using Microsoft Office
products don't have college courses on these specific products. I am a
draftsperson, who has more computer experience than most. I have taken some
introductory courses on Microsoft Office products, enough to know that there
are some powerful tools available to format documents, but so long ago that I
can't remember specifics. For Microsoft to have such counter intuitive
formatting in a PREMIUM product that is marketed as an easy to use,
'Productivity Tool', is un-defendable. It is just another indication of
Microsoft's arrogance.
I find it sad that almost all of the documents that I open either from our
office or sent to us from customers or suppliers are completely unformatted.
Most users still use the ‘Return Key’ to end lines and ‘Space Bar’ to indent.
When I talk to some of the people who have generated these documents, it’s
not that they don’t know that they can do it better, it’s that it takes too
much time and is too hard to correct. I think that much of the reason is that
to really format a document correctly is still overly complicated and silly
‘counter intuitive’ issues like page formatting at the end of a section is
enough to take most user’s over the edge.
If you work with ‘Word’ in depth everyday you can probably make it dance,
but Microsoft is selling this to ordinary people who are just trying to get
something done. In my case, I have a couple of weeks to create a Drafting
Standards Document. I don’t really have time to take a three or four day
course to brush up on how to make MS Word’s formatting work. If Microsoft
want’s to make the big bucks for their ‘Productivity Tools’ they should be
addressing “confusing, but it’s “by design”.” type issues to make them not
confusing.
Regards,
Kent
"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote:
> The article to which I referred you (both) has a section specifically about
> how to preserve section formatting when deleting material at the end of a
> document. Since the mvps.org server is currently down, I can't point you to
> the specific section, but it is toward the end.
>
> The article explains the way section formatting works. This understanding is
> basic to working with sections. When you have only a single section, the
> section formatting is held in the final paragraph mark. When you insert a
> section break, it holds the formatting for the previous section, and the
> final paragraph mark holds the formatting for the final section. If you want
> to delete the section break (and the material following it), you must copy
> its formatting to the last section first.
>
> Microsoft does provide paid support for users. Free support is provided
> through these NGs. I don't feel any need to support a "poor product." It is
> a poor workman who blames his tools; you view Word as a "poor product"
> because you are unwilling to learn how to use it.
>
> You will also find, it you want to use these NGs regularly, that an NNTP
> newsreader such as Outlook Express makes this far easier; see
> http://www.gmayor.com/MSNews.htm
>
> --
> Suzanne S. Barnhill
> Microsoft MVP (Word)
> Words into Type
> Fairhope, Alabama USA
>
> "Steve H" <Steve H@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:C8B89AD2-4C3D-452E-9194-7774818B04F7@microsoft.com...
> > Ms. Barnhill -
> >
> > Did you read the e-mails posted here? Do you realize that there were two
> > separate posters (Kate Stiteler and Ken S.) and not one?
> >
> > I understand that you are a Word MVP and do not work for Microsoft. And
> > for
> > what it's worth, my thanks go to you and other "volunteers" for the time
> > you
> > devote to trying to explain Microsoft's flawed products. But, to claim
> > that
> > your post is not representative of Microsoft is disingenuous at best. I
> > linked to this thread on Microsoft's website by clicking a link in the
> > Help
> > program for Microsoft Word. So although you may not be a Microsoft
> > employee,
> > Microsoft is definitely using you to try to defend and explain their poor
> > product. Why can't Microsoft themselves respond to this question about
> > their
> > own product? Why do they need to rely on non-employees to explain their
> > product? Regarding Ken S.'s post, regardless of your status with respect
> > to
> > Microsoft, this thread is a "response by Microsoft" and a poor one at
> > that.
> >
> >
> > I had a similar question as Ken S. about the major annoyance of deleting a
> > section break and losing all of the formatting of the section that I am
> > keeping. I read the article that you linked to, but I did not find it to
> > be
> > very helpful. For one thing, the article did not specifically address
> > Ken's
> > (and my) question about deleting a section break without losing the
> > section
> > formatting that precedes that break. Basically, the take-home message is
> > that there is no solution for this problem other than formatting the
> > second
> > section to exactly match the first section before deleting the section
> > break.
> >
> >
> > Regardless of your (and other MVP's) good intentions, the fact remains
> > that
> > Word is a flawed product and this section break nonsense makes no sense at
> > all. In most cultures where Word and other Microsoft products are sold,
> > people write from beginning to end. We write a section, format it, create
> > a
> > section break, and then repeat. Why on earth should we lose the
> > formatting
> > for the first section when we delete the section break? A section break
> > is
> > created when we want a new section, but why is that section break for the
> > new
> > section suddenly imbued with the properties and formatting of the
> > preceding
> > section? That makes no sense. Look at it this way - if I have a
> > one-section
> > document with no section breaks, I can apply formatting to that section,
> > right? So why does everything change and all of the formatting for that
> > section is suddenly applied to a section break that I happen to insert at
> > the
> > end of that section?
> >
> > One more complaint and then my rant will be over: I tried to reply to
> > this
> > thread inside the Word Help window, but it didn't work (natch). I had to
> > go
> > online with my favorite browser (Opera, obviously not IE) to find this
> > thread
> > so that I could reply.
> >
>
>
> |
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Let me simply say that I agree - this "feature" is one of the stupidest I've
ever encountered. I've been using Word for over 20 years, have an IQ well
over 150, and I still cannot figure out how to delete Section 2 from a
two-section document without losing my formatting.
Microsoft, you should be ashamed of yourselves.
--
Max
"Kent D." wrote:
> Suzanne,
>
> Thank you for your help, as I have a similar problem. Please don't take my
> comments as a personal attack, but I hope that you can gain perspective from
> them. I also want to comment that I'm sure it is difficult to deal with
> people who are frustrated by not being able to do the things that they are
> trying to do because they haven't learned the right way to accomplish them.
>
> But Microsoft sells Office as a 'Productivity Tool', aims it at the business
> market and charges PREMIUM prices for their products. Microsoft has been
> marketing Office Products as simple to use, so that any one can pick them up
> and get things done. Most of the people who are now using Microsoft Office
> products don't have college courses on these specific products. I am a
> draftsperson, who has more computer experience than most. I have taken some
> introductory courses on Microsoft Office products, enough to know that there
> are some powerful tools available to format documents, but so long ago that I
> can't remember specifics. For Microsoft to have such counter intuitive
> formatting in a PREMIUM product that is marketed as an easy to use,
> 'Productivity Tool', is un-defendable. It is just another indication of
> Microsoft's arrogance.
>
> I find it sad that almost all of the documents that I open either from our
> office or sent to us from customers or suppliers are completely unformatted.
> Most users still use the ‘Return Key’ to end lines and ‘Space Bar’ to indent.
> When I talk to some of the people who have generated these documents, it’s
> not that they don’t know that they can do it better, it’s that it takes too
> much time and is too hard to correct. I think that much of the reason is that
> to really format a document correctly is still overly complicated and silly
> ‘counter intuitive’ issues like page formatting at the end of a section is
> enough to take most user’s over the edge.
>
> If you work with ‘Word’ in depth everyday you can probably make it dance,
> but Microsoft is selling this to ordinary people who are just trying to get
> something done. In my case, I have a couple of weeks to create a Drafting
> Standards Document. I don’t really have time to take a three or four day
> course to brush up on how to make MS Word’s formatting work. If Microsoft
> want’s to make the big bucks for their ‘Productivity Tools’ they should be
> addressing “confusing, but it’s “by design”.” type issues to make them not
> confusing.
>
> Regards,
> Kent
>
> "Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote:
>
> > The article to which I referred you (both) has a section specifically about
> > how to preserve section formatting when deleting material at the end of a
> > document. Since the mvps.org server is currently down, I can't point you to
> > the specific section, but it is toward the end.
> >
> > The article explains the way section formatting works. This understanding is
> > basic to working with sections. When you have only a single section, the
> > section formatting is held in the final paragraph mark. When you insert a
> > section break, it holds the formatting for the previous section, and the
> > final paragraph mark holds the formatting for the final section. If you want
> > to delete the section break (and the material following it), you must copy
> > its formatting to the last section first.
> >
> > Microsoft does provide paid support for users. Free support is provided
> > through these NGs. I don't feel any need to support a "poor product." It is
> > a poor workman who blames his tools; you view Word as a "poor product"
> > because you are unwilling to learn how to use it.
> >
> > You will also find, it you want to use these NGs regularly, that an NNTP
> > newsreader such as Outlook Express makes this far easier; see
> > http://www.gmayor.com/MSNews.htm
> >
> > --
> > Suzanne S. Barnhill
> > Microsoft MVP (Word)
> > Words into Type
> > Fairhope, Alabama USA
> >
> > "Steve H" <Steve H@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> > news:C8B89AD2-4C3D-452E-9194-7774818B04F7@microsoft.com...
> > > Ms. Barnhill -
> > >
> > > Did you read the e-mails posted here? Do you realize that there were two
> > > separate posters (Kate Stiteler and Ken S.) and not one?
> > >
> > > I understand that you are a Word MVP and do not work for Microsoft. And
> > > for
> > > what it's worth, my thanks go to you and other "volunteers" for the time
> > > you
> > > devote to trying to explain Microsoft's flawed products. But, to claim
> > > that
> > > your post is not representative of Microsoft is disingenuous at best. I
> > > linked to this thread on Microsoft's website by clicking a link in the
> > > Help
> > > program for Microsoft Word. So although you may not be a Microsoft
> > > employee,
> > > Microsoft is definitely using you to try to defend and explain their poor
> > > product. Why can't Microsoft themselves respond to this question about
> > > their
> > > own product? Why do they need to rely on non-employees to explain their
> > > product? Regarding Ken S.'s post, regardless of your status with respect
> > > to
> > > Microsoft, this thread is a "response by Microsoft" and a poor one at
> > > that.
> > >
> > >
> > > I had a similar question as Ken S. about the major annoyance of deleting a
> > > section break and losing all of the formatting of the section that I am
> > > keeping. I read the article that you linked to, but I did not find it to
> > > be
> > > very helpful. For one thing, the article did not specifically address
> > > Ken's
> > > (and my) question about deleting a section break without losing the
> > > section
> > > formatting that precedes that break. Basically, the take-home message is
> > > that there is no solution for this problem other than formatting the
> > > second
> > > section to exactly match the first section before deleting the section
> > > break.
> > >
> > >
> > > Regardless of your (and other MVP's) good intentions, the fact remains
> > > that
> > > Word is a flawed product and this section break nonsense makes no sense at
> > > all. In most cultures where Word and other Microsoft products are sold,
> > > people write from beginning to end. We write a section, format it, create
> > > a
> > > section break, and then repeat. Why on earth should we lose the
> > > formatting
> > > for the first section when we delete the section break? A section break
> > > is
> > > created when we want a new section, but why is that section break for the
> > > new
> > > section suddenly imbued with the properties and formatting of the
> > > preceding
> > > section? That makes no sense. Look at it this way - if I have a
> > > one-section
> > > document with no section breaks, I can apply formatting to that section,
> > > right? So why does everything change and all of the formatting for that
> > > section is suddenly applied to a section break that I happen to insert at
> > > the
> > > end of that section?
> > >
> > > One more complaint and then my rant will be over: I tried to reply to
> > > this
> > > thread inside the Word Help window, but it didn't work (natch). I had to
> > > go
> > > online with my favorite browser (Opera, obviously not IE) to find this
> > > thread
> > > so that I could reply.
> > >
> >
> >
> > |
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Note that the MVPs don't work for Microsoft. Complaints should be targeted
directly to Microsoft (although I do understand the need to vent at times).
Also, I'd like to point out, as Suzanne did in her reply, that everything
you need to know about sections is explained at
http://word.mvps.org/faqs/formatting/WorkWithSections.htm.
--
Stefan Blom
Microsoft Word MVP
"Max" <Max@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:1460ED63-56A0-475B-A400-80FB40C07C87@microsoft.com...
> Let me simply say that I agree - this "feature" is one of the stupidest
> I've
> ever encountered. I've been using Word for over 20 years, have an IQ well
> over 150, and I still cannot figure out how to delete Section 2 from a
> two-section document without losing my formatting.
>
> Microsoft, you should be ashamed of yourselves.
> --
> Max
>
>
> "Kent D." wrote:
>
>> Suzanne,
>>
>> Thank you for your help, as I have a similar problem. Please don't take
>> my
>> comments as a personal attack, but I hope that you can gain perspective
>> from
>> them. I also want to comment that I'm sure it is difficult to deal with
>> people who are frustrated by not being able to do the things that they
>> are
>> trying to do because they haven't learned the right way to accomplish
>> them.
>>
>> But Microsoft sells Office as a 'Productivity Tool', aims it at the
>> business
>> market and charges PREMIUM prices for their products. Microsoft has been
>> marketing Office Products as simple to use, so that any one can pick them
>> up
>> and get things done. Most of the people who are now using Microsoft
>> Office
>> products don't have college courses on these specific products. I am a
>> draftsperson, who has more computer experience than most. I have taken
>> some
>> introductory courses on Microsoft Office products, enough to know that
>> there
>> are some powerful tools available to format documents, but so long ago
>> that I
>> can't remember specifics. For Microsoft to have such counter intuitive
>> formatting in a PREMIUM product that is marketed as an easy to use,
>> 'Productivity Tool', is un-defendable. It is just another indication of
>> Microsoft's arrogance.
>>
>> I find it sad that almost all of the documents that I open either from
>> our
>> office or sent to us from customers or suppliers are completely
>> unformatted.
>> Most users still use the 'Return Key' to end lines and 'Space Bar' to
>> indent.
>> When I talk to some of the people who have generated these documents,
>> it's
>> not that they don't know that they can do it better, it's that it takes
>> too
>> much time and is too hard to correct. I think that much of the reason is
>> that
>> to really format a document correctly is still overly complicated and
>> silly
>> 'counter intuitive' issues like page formatting at the end of a section
>> is
>> enough to take most user's over the edge.
>>
>> If you work with 'Word' in depth everyday you can probably make it dance,
>> but Microsoft is selling this to ordinary people who are just trying to
>> get
>> something done. In my case, I have a couple of weeks to create a Drafting
>> Standards Document. I don't really have time to take a three or four day
>> course to brush up on how to make MS Word's formatting work. If Microsoft
>> want's to make the big bucks for their 'Productivity Tools' they should
>> be
>> addressing "confusing, but it's "by design"." type issues to make them
>> not
>> confusing.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Kent
>>
>> "Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote:
>>
>> > The article to which I referred you (both) has a section specifically
>> > about
>> > how to preserve section formatting when deleting material at the end of
>> > a
>> > document. Since the mvps.org server is currently down, I can't point
>> > you to
>> > the specific section, but it is toward the end.
>> >
>> > The article explains the way section formatting works. This
>> > understanding is
>> > basic to working with sections. When you have only a single section,
>> > the
>> > section formatting is held in the final paragraph mark. When you insert
>> > a
>> > section break, it holds the formatting for the previous section, and
>> > the
>> > final paragraph mark holds the formatting for the final section. If you
>> > want
>> > to delete the section break (and the material following it), you must
>> > copy
>> > its formatting to the last section first.
>> >
>> > Microsoft does provide paid support for users. Free support is provided
>> > through these NGs. I don't feel any need to support a "poor product."
>> > It is
>> > a poor workman who blames his tools; you view Word as a "poor product"
>> > because you are unwilling to learn how to use it.
>> >
>> > You will also find, it you want to use these NGs regularly, that an
>> > NNTP
>> > newsreader such as Outlook Express makes this far easier; see
>> > http://www.gmayor.com/MSNews.htm
>> >
>> > --
>> > Suzanne S. Barnhill
>> > Microsoft MVP (Word)
>> > Words into Type
>> > Fairhope, Alabama USA
>> >
>> > "Steve H" <Steve H@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
>> > news:C8B89AD2-4C3D-452E-9194-7774818B04F7@microsoft.com...
>> > > Ms. Barnhill -
>> > >
>> > > Did you read the e-mails posted here? Do you realize that there were
>> > > two
>> > > separate posters (Kate Stiteler and Ken S.) and not one?
>> > >
>> > > I understand that you are a Word MVP and do not work for Microsoft.
>> > > And
>> > > for
>> > > what it's worth, my thanks go to you and other "volunteers" for the
>> > > time
>> > > you
>> > > devote to trying to explain Microsoft's flawed products. But, to
>> > > claim
>> > > that
>> > > your post is not representative of Microsoft is disingenuous at best.
>> > > I
>> > > linked to this thread on Microsoft's website by clicking a link in
>> > > the
>> > > Help
>> > > program for Microsoft Word. So although you may not be a Microsoft
>> > > employee,
>> > > Microsoft is definitely using you to try to defend and explain their
>> > > poor
>> > > product. Why can't Microsoft themselves respond to this question
>> > > about
>> > > their
>> > > own product? Why do they need to rely on non-employees to explain
>> > > their
>> > > product? Regarding Ken S.'s post, regardless of your status with
>> > > respect
>> > > to
>> > > Microsoft, this thread is a "response by Microsoft" and a poor one at
>> > > that.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > I had a similar question as Ken S. about the major annoyance of
>> > > deleting a
>> > > section break and losing all of the formatting of the section that I
>> > > am
>> > > keeping. I read the article that you linked to, but I did not find
>> > > it to
>> > > be
>> > > very helpful. For one thing, the article did not specifically
>> > > address
>> > > Ken's
>> > > (and my) question about deleting a section break without losing the
>> > > section
>> > > formatting that precedes that break. Basically, the take-home
>> > > message is
>> > > that there is no solution for this problem other than formatting the
>> > > second
>> > > section to exactly match the first section before deleting the
>> > > section
>> > > break.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Regardless of your (and other MVP's) good intentions, the fact
>> > > remains
>> > > that
>> > > Word is a flawed product and this section break nonsense makes no
>> > > sense at
>> > > all. In most cultures where Word and other Microsoft products are
>> > > sold,
>> > > people write from beginning to end. We write a section, format it,
>> > > create
>> > > a
>> > > section break, and then repeat. Why on earth should we lose the
>> > > formatting
>> > > for the first section when we delete the section break? A section
>> > > break
>> > > is
>> > > created when we want a new section, but why is that section break for
>> > > the
>> > > new
>> > > section suddenly imbued with the properties and formatting of the
>> > > preceding
>> > > section? That makes no sense. Look at it this way - if I have a
>> > > one-section
>> > > document with no section breaks, I can apply formatting to that
>> > > section,
>> > > right? So why does everything change and all of the formatting for
>> > > that
>> > > section is suddenly applied to a section break that I happen to
>> > > insert at
>> > > the
>> > > end of that section?
>> > >
>> > > One more complaint and then my rant will be over: I tried to reply
>> > > to
>> > > this
>> > > thread inside the Word Help window, but it didn't work (natch). I
>> > > had to
>> > > go
>> > > online with my favorite browser (Opera, obviously not IE) to find
>> > > this
>> > > thread
>> > > so that I could reply.
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
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Thanks, Suzanne! That really helped.
Just one important remark: I had two sections, where the first one had
different header/footer for the first page. In this case, I had to insert a
manual page break in the Section 2 before copying the settings from Section 1.
"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote:
> This behavior has not changed in Word 2003. See
> http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Formatting/WorkWithSections.htm
>
> --
> Suzanne S. Barnhill
> Microsoft MVP (Word)
> Words into Type
> Fairhope, Alabama USA
> Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
> Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
> all may benefit.
>
> "Kate Stiteler" <Kate Stiteler@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:4D88F19B-9AA5-4B66-8A38-C87D26DB82DB@microsoft.com...
> > First, let me say that I hate Microsoft Word 2003. It seems like they have
> > really made it less user friendly.
> >
> > I use a lot of Section Breaks when drafting reports. Generally I have page
> 1
> > with one header and footer, which I end with a continuous section break,
> > followed by subsequent pages with no header and page number footers. I
> then
> > will use a page section break, and start the process again with a
> different
> > header.
> >
> > Well, I now find that when I delete a continuous section break to insert
> it
> > elsewhere, the page section break above it is ALSO deleted, and then
> > impossible to put back in. This annoying fluke is the bane of my
> existence.
> > Any help?
>
> |
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Hello, I have to insert some text in 2 columns in my document. The problem is
it is automatically creating a section brake at the formated text and the
next page has a different section and page number. I tried to link it to the
previous page but it doesn't work, tried to format the page number at the
"continue numbering", doesn't work even like that and I really need the page
to be continuous in the whole document. I've worked before with columned text
and I didn't have this kind of problem... please help me, it's driving me mad
"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote:
> This behavior has not changed in Word 2003. See
> http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Formatting/WorkWithSections.htm
>
> --
> Suzanne S. Barnhill
> Microsoft MVP (Word)
> Words into Type
> Fairhope, Alabama USA
> Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
> Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
> all may benefit.
>
> "Kate Stiteler" <Kate Stiteler@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:4D88F19B-9AA5-4B66-8A38-C87D26DB82DB@microsoft.com...
> > First, let me say that I hate Microsoft Word 2003. It seems like they have
> > really made it less user friendly.
> >
> > I use a lot of Section Breaks when drafting reports. Generally I have page
> 1
> > with one header and footer, which I end with a continuous section break,
> > followed by subsequent pages with no header and page number footers. I
> then
> > will use a page section break, and start the process again with a
> different
> > header.
> >
> > Well, I now find that when I delete a continuous section break to insert
> it
> > elsewhere, the page section break above it is ALSO deleted, and then
> > impossible to put back in. This annoying fluke is the bane of my
> existence.
> > Any help?
>
> |
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