Windows Internet Explorer 8 Expert Zone Chat (March 25, 2009)

Chat Topic: Windows Internet Explorer 8 Expert Zone Chat
Date: Wednesday, March 25, 2009

Please note: Portions of this transcript have been edited for clarity.

Daniel (Moderator):
Let's get started with our chat! At this time I'd like to have our Internet Explorer Experts introduce themselves....

Introductions:

Adam [msft] (Expert):
Hi, this is Adam. I work in developer support (supporting IE) and am also currently working on the IE tech beta bugs.

Allison [MSFT] (Expert):
Hey, I’m Allison and I’ve been working on the technical beta program.

Kristen [MSFT] (Expert):
Hi Everyone! I'm Kristen and I work on the Customer Feedback and Release team. Thanks for joing the chat today :)

Kymberlee Price (Expert):
Hi, I'm Kymberlee and I'm a Program Manager working on Security for Internet Explorer 8. This is obviously my first IE public chat as you can see I didn't know about the Kymberlee [MSFT] naming convention. <-- n00b :$

Travis [MSFT] (Expert):
Hi, I'm Travis Leithead. I'd love to take your questions around the IE8 programming model: DOM, HTML, JScript (should be able to answer most of those questions), getters/setters, AJAX navigation, Selectors API, etc.

EricLaw [MSFT] (Expert):
Hello, my name is Eric Lawrence, and I'm a security program manager on the IE team.

Travis [MSFT] (Expert):
In case you didn't hear, we released IE8 last Thursday. You can download it at:http://www.microsoft.com/ie8

Allison [MSFT] (Expert):
Yes :)

Start of chat:

Travis [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: While drastically reduced, we are still having problems erroneous 404 errors coming through on IE8 RTW documented in Connect feedback 404492. I added a packet trace, and also updated the test account in our software. Can someone peek in on that feedback?
A: We're looking at that now...

Kristen [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: First, congrats. - Lot of changes in IE8. A lot to absorb. Any plans for a "roundup" of sorts to be published?
A: Hi Fontman! Keep an eye on the IE Team Blog (http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/default.aspx ). We are posting a lot about the work we've done in IE8 there.

EricLaw [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Are there any IE blog posts yet about how to log in to multiple sessions on a website simultaneously? EricLaw said at the last chat that he hoped there would be one soon...
A: I expect to be posting a blog on this in the next week or two. thanks!

Kymberlee Price (Expert):
Q: For fun: did the Mozilla team send donuts, or anything? ;) Congratulations, anyway!
A: nom nom nom... we have donuts this morning, but no, there were no Congratulations On Your New Browser gifts from Mozilla. :)

EricLaw [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Have you started planning for ie9? Is there anything you can share (directions you consider, state of planning?)
A: Sure. Sheer awesomeness, and early. :-) Seriously, though, for right now, we're all about listening. Listening to feedback on IE8, and what you folks think are most important for IE9.

Travis [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: New APIs are available only in ie8 standard mode. How is it handled from the point of view of automation, e.g. accession the DOM from Internet.Application in PowerShell? Is it possible to use e.g. selector queries?
A: It all depends on how MSHTML.dll is used in the application. By default, hosting MSHTML.dll in your app will always get you Compatibility View by default unless you opt-in via a registry key to stardards mode. I don't know how PowerShell interfaces with IE, but if it uses COM, them we've created new interfaces that have the IE8 standards mode behavior. IDispatch callers will get compatibility view by default as well. We decided to make compatibility view the default in these scenarios to ensure the best out-of-box experiences for the ecosystem build on IE technology.

Kristen [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: I'm impressed by IE8's stability, mem mgmt and responsiveness. I'm yet to see the crash recovery mechanism, it doesn't take loads of memory like IE7 did & very heavy & Javascript pages like Digg comments & Wikipedia feel smooth while scrolling. WELL DONE!!
A: Thanks! I will pass along your comments to the rest of the team! I know they'll appreciate it!

Travis [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Hello, I can't stay a lot of time, so I've published a file containing some remarks. http://cid-201f3835d49587fe.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Public/Temp/[25%20march%202009]%20IE9%20Conception%20-%20Some%20IE%20bugs.docx
A: Thanks! We'll take a look...

Adam [msft] (Expert):
Q: Is the registry key \HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersuib\ProgramFilesDir what controls the location to which IE8 is installed? I have anecdotal evidence that this is true, but wanted to hear it from you.
A: That key controls where the program files directory is located.

Kristen [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: And, by the way, congratulations for IE8 final, you've done a very impressive work since RC1.
A: Thank you! I'll pass your congrats on to the team :)

Frank [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Does Microsoft (or IE Group specifically) have an official stance towards the 'stuffing' of Restricted Sites performed by Spybot S&D, SpywareBlaster and others, especially as it relates to performance? Any references or supporting documentation available?
A: We have received a lot of reports from users about perf issues being caused by this...We are following up with software developers on these issues. We will have more documentation on IE extensibility soon.

Adam [msft] (Expert):
Q: Is the registry key \HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersuib\ProgramFilesDir what controls the location to which IE8 is installed? I have anecdotal evidence that this is true, but wanted to hear it from you.
A: There have been problems with service pack installation if you modify that.

EricLaw [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Can you briefly discuss the change(s) made in IE8 Final that causes the conflict with having a large number of sites running in Restricted Sites zone (cf., SpywareBlaster; Spybot; et. al.), especially since the conflict was not seen in any beta builds?
A: This was a side-effect of a recent change to better support non-standard top-level-domains which are becoming more common. You can read about the general issue with non-standard TLDs on http://publicsuffix.org . IE8 maintains an internal public suffix list. That list changes IE's handling of "known" special TLDs. Unfortunately, the Zones registry format has a dependency on TLDs, which means that we must recalculate the registry against this new TLD list. That works fine in the general case, but fails badly when there are thousands of sites in the lists. We're working on this issue.

EricLaw [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: What does it take to set Ctrl for SAVE AS because Save is always grayed out for internet pages. Also, how about allowing saving without obstructing switching to other tabs? I used multiple windows several times instead of tabs because of this.
A: I have a bug filed on IE9 already for CTRL+S to map to "Save As". As for non-modal saving, that's a great suggestion.

Allison [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: On the IE blog, you mentioned a new (upcoming) form for feature requests. So, what does it look like?
A: Yes, we will be placing a new form on Connect for improvements for the next version of IE. We will send out an email to the Technical Beta participants when it is available on Connect.

EricLaw [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: I know you're still in the planning stages but will the gap till IE9 be as long as the one between IE7 and IE8?
A: Schedule and release dates are not something we're ready to talk about at this point; we want to listen to your feedback and suggestions now.

EricLaw [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Another question before to go out : Why does nobody of the IETeam discuss in the W3C mailing list ? This is dommagable for the IETeam because you're not 'up-to-date' with what is being proposed to the W3C. Or at least, you're never saying it ;)
A: Several members of the Internet Explorer team (and others at Microsoft) participate in the W3C mailing lists.

Kristen [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Feature suggestion: Please allow separate sounds for feeds and webslices.
A: Thank you for the suggestion. We'll add to the wishlist for consideration in a future version of IE.

EricLaw [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: @Adam [5]: True... I guess my real question is: is IE8 always installed to the "Program Files" directory, which is specified by that particular key. I'm not interested in changing it, I just want to know...
A: Yes, I believe that is the case.

Adam [msft] (Expert):
Q: @Adam [5]: True... I guess my real question is: is IE8 always installed to the "Program Files" directory, which is specified by that particular key. I'm not interested in changing it, I just want to know...
A: Since we don't document that information publicly, it's not something that i can disclose.

EricLaw [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: It seems that for some users RIES is not sufficient to correct various errors with the UI (e.g. Favorites Center and Find in page dialog missing or broken) and have had to resort to an assortment of regsvr32 repairs. Comments please?
A: RIES is all about restoring IE to default settings. It is not intended to fix or resolve installation failures.

EricLaw [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: I really like the "Duplicate Tab" feature. Thanks. While it's clear that the recent pwn2own contest was against a beta version of IE8, can you confirm whether or not the bug it uses is present in the release version of IE8?
A: The bug reported at pwn2own was responsibly disclosed and is under active investigation by the IE team. I would also like to specifically flag http://blogs.technet.com/srd/archive/2009/03/23/released-build-of-internet-explorer-8-blocks-dowd-sotirov-aslr-dep-net-bypass.aspx

Adam [msft] (Expert):
Q: IE Blog http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/ is a great resource, but so is the askIE/We Know IE blog http://blogs.msdn.com/askIE/ . Thanks for both!
A: That's great to hear. I know the engineers will be very happy to hear that. Please post a feedback to the topics as well.

Allison [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Would you prefer users running IE8 Final to post feedback, etc., in IE General newsgroup now or continue posting in IE Beta newsgroup?
A: Please use the General newsgroup! Thanks!

Tony [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: I am having a problem with IE8 crashing on the same web pages? I tried the compatability view but still crashes on the same page. any suggestions?
A: What are the pages that are crashing? You could try running in no add-ons mode to see if that makes a difference.

Travis [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Is there a way to get standard mode for IDispatch callers?
A: There is a way (this is how IE itself connects to the script engine). I just checked and can't find current documentation on how to do it though... Send me an email at travil _at_ microsoft [dot] com and I'll have someone look that info up and get it posted. Sorry, I don't know this offhand...

Kymberlee Price (Expert):
Q: Has the exploit used in the recent Pwn2Own been patched?
A: We are investigating the Pwn2Own issue that was responsibly provided to us by TippingPoint. While we can't comment on the specifics of the investigation at this time, we can say that the attack as demonstrated in Pwn2Own at CanSecWest will not succeed on the RTW build released on March 19 due to changes that can block the ASLR+DEP .NET bypass demonstrated by Dowd and Sotirov at BlackHat in 2008.

Kristen [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Another small feature suggestion: Please add a Save All menu command for saving all loaded pages in open tabs.
A: Well add this one to the wish list :)

Travis [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Got wind of SuperPreview just this morning - haven't installed as yet. How does that fit into the overall push to move the user base to IE8?
A: Ah, SuperPreview is great--we demonstrated a BETA version at the recent MIX conference. One of the advantages of SuperPreview in my view, is the ability for site owners that still depend on IE6 to be able to preview what their site will look like in IE7 compatibility view and IE8. This can help these folks in their migration to IE8.

Frank [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: The eBay Web Slice and accelerators only appear to be available in the special eBay version and not at the IE8 webslice gallery. Why?
A: Add-on developers can choose to distribute their add-ons with ieaddons.com, or on their own site...if an add-on developer doesn't choose to list it on ieaddons.com, we don't add it on their behalf.

EricLaw [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Why is making the x64 version the default browser disallowed, on x64? If the user wants it and knows about plugins being available only in ie/x86?
A: Some applications will not work properly in this configuration, and the 64-bit version is a significant source of confusion for many users. In the future, as 64bit addons become more popular and 64bit systems become more prevalent, this may change.

Travis [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Suggestions... Once I asked about MathML, and was told that even though PTLS now supports math display, adding MathML would be a lot of work. What does it encompass, beside XHTML support?
A: Are you asking about what MathML requires more than XHTML support? Or what PTLS requires for MathML support?

Frank [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: I can't get the find on this page option to work on a XP macine can you help?
A: Odd :) Does it also happen in no-addons IE? What are the exact steps to reproduce this problem?

Allison [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Where can I get the INETRES.ADMX & INETRES.ADML Active Directory Group Policy Object template files for the released version of IE 8?
A: It is installed with IE8. Go to gpedit.msc and view the policies in the policy definition folder. Thanks!

Adam [msft] (Expert):
Q: check out masslive.com and try to open the obit. section
A: I have that opened successfully....

EricLaw [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Most of the crashes have been on newspaper sites. It says that the web page caused the fault.
A: It's likely related to a buggy activex control. Please ensure that you have the latest versions of Flash and other popular addons.

Adam [msft] (Expert):
Q: check out masslive.com and try to open the obit. section
A: What should i be looking for?

EricLaw [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Which mail lists are used by the IETeam ? I don't remind any message of Microsoft in www-style last 6 months, but maybe I missed these (they are many message in the list).
A: We participate in the CSS lists, the HTML5 lists, and the HTTP lists. There are likely others, but those are 3 I've mailed myself, or seen threads on.

EricLaw [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Re: Q[25] Thanks for the clarification. When RIES was created and IEReReg was removed I was given a different impression.
A: Sorry, Robert.

Adam [msft] (Expert):
Q: check out masslive.com and try to open the obit. section
A: there's actually two obituary links... I tried clicking both of them and they both lead to the same page and they appear to display without any apparent issues.

Kristen [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Can we expect at least a basic file download manager in IE9 with definable actions like Hibernate/Standby/Shutdown after downloads complete?
A: We have the request for a download manager on our list of customer requested features for consideration in a future IE version.

Travis [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Is support for CSS 3 selectors high on the IE9 priority list?
A: At a recent conference (SxSW) Sylvain was asked a similar question about CSS3. There are quite a few CSS3 modules, and everyone has their favorite. In general, CSS authors want stuff like rounded-corners, multi-column, etc., and selectors are high on the public priority list. As we begin planning for our next version this kind of customer feedback will play an important role in prioritizing our feature set.

Frank [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Please allow more control over JS opened windows/JS actions such as disallow move or resize, raise or lower windows, disable right click, hide menus and navigation buttons, hide scrollbars, allow resizing.
A: You can already do a lot of the things you requested: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms536651(VS.85).aspx

Adam [msft] (Expert):
Q: I just tried the masslive.com site again and the obituaries page crashed, does it every time.
A: It could be due to an old version of flash. Can you try displaying the page without flash or without any add-ons as a quick test?

Frank [MSFT] (Expert):
@tuxidea let me know which methods you want for opening new windows. We have to be careful to allow only some of them on web pages (for example, we always have to identify a html window as a browser window (by showing the address bar) - otherwise malicious pages would impersonate OS UI, for example)

EricLaw [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: I would like to be able to relabel some tabs to help differentiate them. I found that entering this in the Address bar should work: javascript:document.title="1";document.recalc();E.g. F12 shows the new title but the tab label is unchanged even when I
A: That's a cool suggestion.

Travis [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: @Travis: MathML: What would be needed to support MathML beside XHTML support + knowing about a some more tags? (Implied: can we hope for it?)
A: A good question. In general, adding markup tags is the easy part. Then any special DOM exposed by the MathML elements must be implemented, finally (the hard part) is hooking up the appropriate "behavior" for the elements so that they render on screen. Depending on PTLS's existing "behavior" support for these elements (support for which I am unaware) it could be "easy". However, we never implement features just because they are easy--rather they must play into the overall strategy for the release and be prioritized against the goals of that release. Basically, it's too early to tell how MathML might fit in, but your feedback is definately important.

EricLaw [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: A litle problem you may don't have seen if you're English : some activities have the same function but have translated 'keyword' (e.g. : "Translate with B"|"translate", "Traduire avec A"|"traduire". Can we change the type of an activity manually ? How ?
A: You can change the category of an Accelerator by using the Manage Addons dialog. Click the Accelerator, and in the bottom pane, click "Change" next to the Accelerator category.

Tony [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Nice to see final version of IE8. Good work. I would like to see XML parser in IE9 for XHTML and also HTML5 support. What is new in msfeeds.dll 2.0? I don't like I don't know which headline is new or read when feed is updated.
A: Thanks for the suggestions on what you'd like to see in IE9. I should mention that we already support some features from HTML5 in IE8, such as simple client-side storage, cross-document messaging, and connection events.

EricLaw [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Many devs are itching to drop IE6 support. Can we get any useful info/advice from MS as to circumstances where it's unreasonable or unwise to demand that a user move to IE7 or IE8?
A: In general, we're encouraging folks to move to the latest IE version as soon as they possibly can. The primary case to consider is the case where the "user" cannot make the move because they do not have appropriate permissions to do so. For instance, if I'm in an internet cafe in the Taiwan airport, and you tell me that I must upgrade to IE7, I'm stuck because the cafe uses IE7 and I cannot make changes. Similarly, some users in corporate environments cannot move until the IT department moves the entire organization.

Travis [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: I would really like to have XHTML+MathML support. Publishing math on the web is really horrible now, we usually end up converting everything to images or linking to PDF documents. OTOH, the Office team did a great work on math display.
A: Agreed. Math on the web could be made much more rich and interactive with MathML support. I see this as especially important for education institutions. We hear lots of requests for this as well as SVG, both of which add richer presentation to the web. Thanks for this feedback.

EricLaw [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Is there any publlic documentation yet for all the new command-line switches?
A: Robert-- There were relatively few. The two that come to mind are -nomerge (creates new session) -private (launch IE InPrivate). While there are a few others, these are not documented, subject to change, and hence should not be relied upon.

Frank [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: @Frank, Disable context menus, close windows not opened by that script, resizing allowable, hide menu bar, toolbar buttons (especially Save as), hide scrollbars.
A: Because of security concerns, we can't allow some of the settings you mentioned - it would be a problem if a malicious script in a page could disable context menus, disable save as, close windows not opened by the script.

Kymberlee Price (Expert):
Q: I do want to say: IE8 RTW worked with out software pretty much out of the box. When IE7 launched, we had a month or two of feverish work trying to get it to work with our software. With IE8, everything went smooth. Congratulations and well done to all.
A: Thanks, this is great feedback on the out-of-box user experience. We're all glad to hear you're enjoying your new browser! :)

Travis [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Is support for microformats being considered? I heard it was being planned for the IE8 release itself. At least adr, hCard, hCalendar, geo, tag, xFolk, RDF.
A: Back in the planning stages of IE8, we did consider microformat support--over the course of planning and development, this support morphed into a microformat extension of hAtom called "web slices" (hslice), which we've now released as its own format. For more info see: http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/03/06/activities-and-webslices-in-internet-explorer-8.aspx

EricLaw [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Just to confirm: am I doing something wrong if I still get terrible performance with absolutely positioned VML elements, or did you just not have enough time to fix it?
A: Simo-- I saw at least one checkin for the VML performance bug that you reported that brought us back into linear performance for this VML creation scenario. I'll follow up with the developer on this to see why you're not seeing the fix.

Travis [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Is XForms and Web Forms 2.0 support on the radar?
A: Since Web Forms 2.0 was recently absorbed into HTML5, it's definately on the radar ;)

EricLaw [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Re: Q: [57] The one I was particularly interested in is -fullscreen <eg>
A: I'm not sure if that's a feature request? iexplore.exe -fullscreen currently doesn't do anything other than try to navigate to the url "-fullscreen".

EricLaw [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: @eric: Knowing that MS is being as pro-active as possible in moving users to IE8 will go a long way. (IMHO) Are there any concrete plans to encourage upgrades?
A: Of course... We have a ton of folks whose job it is to help organizations move forward and evangelize the benefits of IE8. Of course, we'll also be doing WU/AU rollouts in the coming months that will significantly speed adoption for the majority of users.

Travis [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: @Travis [2]: Should I keep an eye on our error logs and the connect feedback over the next couple of days?
A: Yes, in fact, Adam just added some data to that bug. Thanks for the report--that's a pretty cool bug.

EricLaw [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: How about a simple text to speech/read page/selected text aloud function using SAPI?
A: That's a cool idea, and one of the simplest possible plugins to author because all of the components exist. I actually wrote an addon that did this back in 1998. :-)

Travis [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: @eric: Do you sleep at all?
A: I'll speak for Eric--no he doesn't. :)

EricLaw [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Password save confirmaion shouldn't stop page load/login. Also, asking whether to save password after the successful/failed login is better because then incorrect passwords won't be saved.
A: I agree that redesigning this experience would be a solid improvement. Thanks for the suggestion!

EricLaw [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Is their any consideration of Gazelle replacing Trident?
A: Gazelle is a Research prototype concept for how a browser's security model ought to behave. It is not a rendering engine or parser, and hence could not "replace" Trident.

EricLaw [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Re: Q [59] (-fullscreen) Sometimes it works? <eg>
A: Really? Odd. It doesn't work on any of my machines.

Kymberlee Price (Expert):
Q: Password save confirmaion shouldn't stop page load/login. Also, asking whether to save password after the successful/failed login is better because then incorrect passwords won't be saved.
A: tuxidea - thanks for the feedback for IE9. Password management is something we looked at in IE8 but ultimately had to cut. As a user I totally understand why this is a popular and compelling scenario. But as a security person I see it as fraught with challenges to implement. Login with a single master password for example - differentiation of passwords is beneficial to protecting sensitive data like bank accounts separate from less sensitive data like Twitter accounts. One of my former colleagues and current MVP, Jesper Johanssen, has done a lot of research and writing on the topic of secure passwords. If you are interested, his blogposts on the topic are at http://msinfluentials.com/blogs/jesper/search.aspx?q=passwords .

Travis [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Automation seems to be lagging behind the UI. I would like to have tab management, opml export... available from PowerShell (through COM/IDispatch) scripts.
A: These are some good requests. Our automation improved somewhat in IE8, and we'd like to continue to improve it for the next version. Keep this feedback coming...

EricLaw [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Can the IE team, MVPs or experts tell me if the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_layout_engines pages are accurate and up-to-date? Why is CSS 2 support for some elements still mentioned as partial or NO on the CSS page?
A: The page in question doesn't seem to have a list of elements and a table? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_layout_engines_(Cascading_Style_Sheets) notes specifically "This article is incomplete, and may require expansion or cleanup".

Daniel (Moderator):
Looks like we're already out of time for today's chat. Thank you very much to all of our guests who joined us today as well as to our Experts for answering questions. The next IE8 chat is scheduled here (April 23rd):http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone/chats/default.mspx Have a great day everyone!

Allison [MSFT] (Expert):
Thanks everyone! Great questions. See you in April!

Frank [MSFT] (Expert):
thanks everybody! great questions.

Kymberlee Price (Expert):
/wave

Tony [MSFT] (Expert):
Thanks everyone!

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