{"id":620664,"date":"2019-11-13T03:30:17","date_gmt":"2019-11-13T11:30:17","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/?p=620664"},"modified":"2022-11-07T11:43:00","modified_gmt":"2022-11-07T19:43:00","slug":"hacking-the-runway-with-makecode-with-dr-thomas-ball-and-dr-teddy-seyed","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/podcast\/hacking-the-runway-with-makecode-with-dr-thomas-ball-and-dr-teddy-seyed\/","title":{"rendered":"Hacking the runway with MakeCode with Dr. Thomas Ball and Dr. Teddy Seyed"},"content":{"rendered":"<h3><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter wp-image-620697 size-large\" src=\"https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/wp-content\/uploads\/2019\/11\/Research_Podcast_Tom-and-Teddy_Site_10_2019_1400x788-1024x576.png\" alt=\"Dr. Ant Rowstron and Mark Russinovich on the Microsoft Research podcast\" width=\"1024\" height=\"576\" srcset=\"https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/wp-content\/uploads\/2019\/11\/Research_Podcast_Tom-and-Teddy_Site_10_2019_1400x788-1024x576.png 1024w, https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/wp-content\/uploads\/2019\/11\/Research_Podcast_Tom-and-Teddy_Site_10_2019_1400x788-300x169.png 300w, https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/wp-content\/uploads\/2019\/11\/Research_Podcast_Tom-and-Teddy_Site_10_2019_1400x788-768x432.png 768w, https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/wp-content\/uploads\/2019\/11\/Research_Podcast_Tom-and-Teddy_Site_10_2019_1400x788-1066x600.png 1066w, https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/wp-content\/uploads\/2019\/11\/Research_Podcast_Tom-and-Teddy_Site_10_2019_1400x788-655x368.png 655w, https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/wp-content\/uploads\/2019\/11\/Research_Podcast_Tom-and-Teddy_Site_10_2019_1400x788-343x193.png 343w, https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/wp-content\/uploads\/2019\/11\/Research_Podcast_Tom-and-Teddy_Site_10_2019_1400x788-640x360.png 640w, https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/wp-content\/uploads\/2019\/11\/Research_Podcast_Tom-and-Teddy_Site_10_2019_1400x788-960x540.png 960w, https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/wp-content\/uploads\/2019\/11\/Research_Podcast_Tom-and-Teddy_Site_10_2019_1400x788-1280x720.png 1280w, https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/wp-content\/uploads\/2019\/11\/Research_Podcast_Tom-and-Teddy_Site_10_2019_1400x788.png 1400w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1024px) 100vw, 1024px\" \/><\/h3>\n<h3>Episode 98 | November 13, 2019<\/h3>\n<p>Computer programming has often been perceived as the exclusive domain of computer scientists and software engineers. But that\u2019s changing, thanks to the work of people like <a href=\"https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/people\/tball\/\">Dr. Thomas Ball<\/a>, a Partner Researcher in the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/group\/research-software-engineering-rise\/\">RiSE group<\/a> at Microsoft Research, and <a href=\"https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/people\/teddy\/\">Dr. Teddy Seyed<\/a>, a post-doctoral researcher in the same group. Their goal is to make programming accessible to non-programmers in places like the classroom, the workshop\u2026 and even the runway!<\/p>\n<p>On today\u2019s podcast, Tom and Teddy talk about physical computing through platforms like <a href=\"https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/project\/microsoft-makecode\/\">MakeCode<\/a>, a simplified programming environment that makes it easier for young people \u2013 and other computer science neophytes \u2013 to start coding with programmable microcontrollers. They also tell us all about <a href=\"https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/project\/project-brookdale\/\">Project Brookdale<\/a>, where they did a collaborative fashion show that gave emerging designers the tools to embed technology in their garments and produce wearables you\u2019d actually want to be seen in!<\/p>\n<h3>Related:<\/h3>\n<ul type=\"disc\">\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/podcast\">Microsoft Research Podcast<\/a>: View more podcasts on Microsoft.com<\/li>\n<li><a class=\"msr-external-link glyph-append glyph-append-open-in-new-tab glyph-append-xsmall\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" target=\"_blank\" href=\"https:\/\/itunes.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/microsoft-research-a-podcast\/id1318021537?mt=2\">iTunes<span class=\"sr-only\"> (opens in new tab)<\/span><\/a>: Subscribe and listen to new podcasts each week on iTunes<\/li>\n<li><a class=\"msr-external-link glyph-append glyph-append-open-in-new-tab glyph-append-xsmall\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" target=\"_blank\" href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/www.blubrry.com\/feeds\/microsoftresearch.xml\">Email<span class=\"sr-only\"> (opens in new tab)<\/span><\/a>: Subscribe and listen by email<\/li>\n<li><a class=\"msr-external-link glyph-append glyph-append-open-in-new-tab glyph-append-xsmall\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" target=\"_blank\" href=\"https:\/\/subscribeonandroid.com\/www.blubrry.com\/feeds\/microsoftresearch.xml\">Android<span class=\"sr-only\"> (opens in new tab)<\/span><\/a>: Subscribe and listen on Android<\/li>\n<li><a class=\"msr-external-link glyph-append glyph-append-open-in-new-tab glyph-append-xsmall\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" target=\"_blank\" href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/4ndjUXyL0hH1FXHgwIiTWU\">Spotify<span class=\"sr-only\"> (opens in new tab)<\/span><\/a>: Listen on Spotify<\/li>\n<li><a class=\"msr-external-link glyph-append glyph-append-open-in-new-tab glyph-append-xsmall\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" target=\"_blank\" href=\"https:\/\/www.blubrry.com\/feeds\/microsoftresearch.xml\">RSS feed<span class=\"sr-only\"> (opens in new tab)<\/span><\/a><\/li>\n<li><a class=\"msr-external-link glyph-append glyph-append-open-in-new-tab glyph-append-xsmall\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" target=\"_blank\" href=\"https:\/\/note.microsoft.com\/ww-registration-microsoft-research-newsletter-s.html?wt.mc_id=S-webpage_podcast\">Microsoft Research Newsletter<span class=\"sr-only\"> (opens in new tab)<\/span><\/a>: Sign up to receive the latest news from Microsoft Research<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<hr>\n<h3>Transcript<\/h3>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Host:&nbsp;<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Today\u2019s two-guest podcast is all about physical computing, programmable microcontrollers, computer science education\u2026 and fashion! Join me, a veteran researcher and a newly hired post-doc researcher for some perspective on the magic of making with the power of code!<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host:&nbsp;<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">You\u2019re listening to the Microsoft Research Podcast, a show that brings you closer to the cutting-edge of technology research and the scientists behind it. I\u2019m your host, Gretchen Huizinga.<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Host:&nbsp;<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Computer programming has often been perceived as the exclusive domain of computer scientists and software engineers<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">. B<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">ut that\u2019s changing, thanks to the work of people like Dr. Thomas Ball, a Partner Researcher in the&nbsp;<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">RiSE<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">&nbsp;group at Microsoft Research, and Dr. Teddy&nbsp;<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Seyed<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">, a post-doctoral researcher in the same group. Their goal is to make programming accessible to non-programmers in<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">&nbsp;places like the classroom, the workshop\u2026 and even the runway!<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">On today\u2019s podcast, Tom and Teddy talk about physical computing through platforms like&nbsp;<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">MakeCode<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">, a simplified programming environment that makes it easier for young people \u2013 and other computer science neophytes \u2013 to start coding with programmable microcontrollers. They also&nbsp;<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">tell us all about Project Brookdale, where they did a collaborative fashion show that gave emerging designers the tools to embed technology in their garments and produce&nbsp;<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">wearables you\u2019d actually want to be seen in<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">!<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">That and much more on this episode of the Microsoft Research Podcast.<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: I want to just start by saying that I\u2019ve been waiting a long time to get you two in the booth with me. Tom Ball, Teddy&nbsp;<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Seyed<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">, welcome to the podcast!<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball: Thank you so much.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Teddy&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Seyed<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">: Yeah, thanks for having us.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: Tom<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">.<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball: Yes.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: You\u2019re a partner researcher in the Research in Software Engineering, or&nbsp;<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">RiSE<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">, group here at Microsoft Research.<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball: That\u2019s right.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: And you\u2019ve been here a while. Teddy, you\u2019ve just been hired as a post doc here at Microsoft Research\u2026<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball: One week ago.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Teddy&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Seyed<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">: Yeah. I\u2019m kind of fresh out of the gate<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">!<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: \u2026although you\u2019ve been at the computer science thing for quite a while, and we\u2019ll get to that shortly. But you\u2019re early on in the game. So we\u2019ve got both ends of the MSR spectrum represented here&nbsp;<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">and because of that<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">,<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">&nbsp;I think this is going to be an exciting version of this question<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">: w<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">hat gets you up in the morning<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">?<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">W<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">hy do you come to work<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">?<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">W<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">hat\u2019s your motivation<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;as they say in the movies?<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball:&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Mmm<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">-hmm. Well, for me it\u2019s the Microsoft Research environment. We get to probe fundamental questions about computer science and work with an amazing set of people. Over my twenty years here<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;I\u2019ve been able to hire people ranging from empirical software engineering researchers<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;to people doing automated theorem provers and compilers<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">programming languages<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u2026<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;and Teddy is an HCI expert, human computer interaction<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;working in the intersection of computing and wearables. And so I just find it really exciting to be working in an area where there\u2019s a huge amount of diversity, a great amount of talent and<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;it\u2019s just fun<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">!<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;For me, every five years or so, I like to sort of switch things up and change things up. So I\u2019m at one of those phase changes and Teddy is like the phase change agent.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Teddy&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Seyed<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">: Glad to be that.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball: Something like that\u2026 you are<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;right?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: The face of phase change. Teddy what gets you up in the morning?<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Teddy&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Seyed<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">: I mean I had a really good internship experience<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">.<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">I mean&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">I was a pretty driven<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;entrepreneurial kind o<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">f,&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">before I came here<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;and then coming to MSR was a really good research experience for me. I remember one of my first meetings<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">, I<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;was sitting with Tom and a few other researchers<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Asta<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">I think<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;as well<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;and you\u2019re kind of like, oh<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;like<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;wow<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">!<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">T<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">hese are all people that I have<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;like<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;read about and they\u2019re so open to collaborating. And it was a very eye<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&#8211;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">opening experience for me.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: Wow.<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Teddy&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Seyed<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">: And then just the internship was fantastic<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">.<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">A<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">nd so now when I wake up<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;it\u2019s like<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;who am I going to work with today and<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;like<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;what kind of things can I do that I can\u2019t do anywhere else<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">?<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;So that really drives me.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: Tom go back just a little bit this, this umbrella of&nbsp;<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">RiSE<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;Research in Software Engineering. I\u2019ve had many of your colleagues on the podcast<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;and it seems to be a kind of phrase that encompasses a lot of different threads of research. Is that by design?<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball: Yeah<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;that\u2019s really by design. When it was started, really<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;by Wolfram Schulte back almost<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;I think<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;2009<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u2026<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">i<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">t brought together a lot of different groups. And, you know, there<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;are<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;so many aspects to software engineering and software quality<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">.<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">T<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">here\u2019s lots of different ways to look at the beast<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;and it\u2019s very complex. So we look at<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">empirical methods, we study how people program<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">.&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Denae<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;Ford Robinson just joined our group<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;she studies people on GitHub<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">.<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">W<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">e have people doing formal automated theorem proving to help us find defects in software or prove that software doesn\u2019t have certain classes of defects. So<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;in general<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;there\u2019s a wide range of problems, software quality, software performance, and<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;for the most part<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;we\u2019re looking at improving the life of the professional software developer<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;although in the last five years we\u2019ve expanded<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">.<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">W<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">e do work<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;really<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;for bringing the programming tools and technologies to end<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&#8211;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">users who may not be programmers. There was work that made it into Microsoft Excel called Flash Fill<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;which is a form of programming-by-example<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;or program synthesis. And then the latest stuff that we\u2019ve been doing with education is a simplified programming environment called&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">MakeCode<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;for making it easier&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">for<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;middle schoolers to start programming with embeddable computers.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: Teddy<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;I want to ask you about your PhD<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;because it\u2019s an interesting one<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">. I<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">t\u2019s the first of its kind in Canada<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;because you came out of the University of Calgary. Tell us about your PhD program, what it involved and how it landed you here.<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Teddy&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Seyed<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">: So my early PhD was really heavily into software and<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;you know<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;building the<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">se<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;sort of Iron Man<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&#8211;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">type interfaces because I\u2019m a huge Marvel Comics fan<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;and I love Iron Man. So I was really interested in<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;like<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;building&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">all<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;those things, and I got really good at it<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;and then I was interested in the business side<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;so I was working for a&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">startup<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;in Calgary, and I didn\u2019t really understand<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;sometimes<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;sort of<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;the business lingo of how<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;you know<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;like<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;a PM would communicate with an external customer. I<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u2019d done&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">a lot of demos and things like that and I was quite comfortable, but it was different being able to communicate with<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">you know<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;VPs and execs.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: Yeah.<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Teddy&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Seyed<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">: So then I was<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;like<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;okay<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;I\u2019ll take some MBA classes, so I did that<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">as part of my<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;like<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;actual degree<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">and then I really liked it.&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">A<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">nd then I also found it interesting because it was very related to the research I was doing in terms of methodology<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">, right,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;where<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;you know<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;I might run a couple of studies to get a paper<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;whereas<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;on the entrepreneurial side<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;I\u2019m running studies to actually<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;like<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;make the product better. So it was like very much the same for me early on\u2026<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: Okay.<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Teddy&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Seyed<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">: \u2026and then I got a bunch of experience doing<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;you know<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;hardware startups and I got really interested in hardware<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;and then I brought that into my own research, so I started doing like more hardware projects as part of my dissertation. So I did a smart watch and a smart phone, and both of them did really well, they got on Gizmodo and Forbes Magazine and things like that. The watch was interesting for me because I was actually trying to build it, so I was&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">pitching<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">to V<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Cs and trying to raise capital and sort of struggling with that<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;but what was interesting in that journey was I wanted to make something that was unique<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;that was from my perspective, that wasn\u2019t something from Google or Apple<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">, right,&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">because they were doing&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">the&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">smart watches at the time. So I jumped into the world of fashion, and I got stuck there because I\u2019m trying to communicate with people that aren\u2019t technical at all, and try<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">ing<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;to teach them concepts<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">, a<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">nd it was always very frustrating for me to do that, and I just stayed there because it was a really good place to sort of learn and experiment with&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">high growth&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">wearables,&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">plus<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;having impact on my community with working with kids and teaching them tech through fashion so it was just a really good place to be. And then coming to MSR<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;I was working on a startup&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">at<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;the time&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">that<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;was doing&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">a<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;fashion tech kit and then I emailed the&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">MakeCode<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;team out of the blue. I was not expecting an answer back from Tom, but Tom replied<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;and we had a, I think it was supposed to be an half an hour call, it ended up being a bit longer<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u2026<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball: Yeah<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;it was a little longer\u2026 and then you came out just for a quick visit.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Teddy&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Seyed<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">: Yeah, yeah<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">.<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">A<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;quick visit and then<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;you know<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;they were<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;like<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;do you want an internship? And I was like,&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">oh<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">, sure<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">!<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: Tom, I always find it interesting<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;from the perspective of two different people, like he\u2019s a grad student in Calgary and he thinks, I\u2019m going to email the&nbsp;<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">M<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">othership right?<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball: Oh<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;yeah.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: Microsoft. So how do you receive these emails? You get this from this guy. What do you think?<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball: Well<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;I mean<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;you go check out what he\u2019s been doing<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;right, and it\u2019s like, whoa<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">!<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">T<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">his is really interesting! And we had been working with the BBC on the&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">micro:bit<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;so we knew about the embedded technology space and how it was being used by schools<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;but also<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;I had a little familiarity with its use in the maker spaces and fashion. And so<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;this just seemed like a really great match. We had helped the product group stand up the&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">MakeCode<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;product<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;which started in&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">r<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">esearch<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;and we were looking for<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;what\u2019s the next thing<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">?<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">A<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">nd<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;you know<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;sometimes\u2026 well<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;luck favors the prepared<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;right<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">?<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">A<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">nd so we were<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u2026<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: That\u2019s true.<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball:&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u2026<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">prepared and Teddy was prepared,&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">and we were both\u2026&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">it was good timing<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;although we had to wait another year before we really got things going because we had some&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">stuff going and Teddy had some stuff going. So<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;you know<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;the email was the seed, but it got a lot of thought processes going about taking this idea of democratizing technology and really making it broader than just CS education in the schools, but many people need to control and use computers as part of their work. And one of the ways you control the computer is through programming and trying to simplify that.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: Right.<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball: So you may not be a computer scientist or even ever take a computing class or a programming class<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;but you\u2019re going to be faced with using the technology or making use of it.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: Well<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;let me go upstream with you there because downstream<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;we\u2019ve got some tangible products and tangible projects, but I\u2019d like you to talk a little bit more upstream about making computer programming accessible. Here<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;we\u2019re talking about people who might not think of themselves as programmers<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">or even able to begin thinking that way.<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">&nbsp;So&nbsp;<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">how have you attacked this<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;from a 10,000 foot view?<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball: Right<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;well at the very high level<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;I feel like people want to be in control of their lives and in control of computers. They don\u2019t want to feel like their lives are controlled by computers, right<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">?<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;And I think that the way that you gain control is through education and through understanding. And to be educated<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;or to have control<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;you need to be more educated about how computers work and then how to make them do your bidding. So I think, you know, fundamentally, that nations around the world have recognized that CS education is just as important as an education in say reading, writing, arithmetic, physical sciences. And Microsoft, from its roots, starting with Basic and DOS, giving people the foundational tools to be able to control the computer, that\u2019s part and parcel of what we do. And the great part these days is its just much easier<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;because of the internet<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">, because of the web, because it\u2019s easy to get access to all these technologies<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;\u2013 if you have access to a computer hooked to an internet<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;which is not a given everywhere\u2026<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: It\u2019s not a universal<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u2026<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball: It\u2019s not universal<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">but if you think about today<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;compared to when I got started in the late 70s<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;there\u2019s so much more available\u2026<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: Oh<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;man<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u2026<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball: \u2026for people who want to learn&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">about&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">computing and then become educated to learn how to control the computers themselves.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><i><span data-contrast=\"auto\">(music plays)<\/span><\/i><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: Let\u2019s talk more in depth about Microsoft CS education platform&nbsp;<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">MakeCode<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">.&nbsp;<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Peli<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">&nbsp;de&nbsp;<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Halleux<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">&nbsp;was on the podcast a while ago and talked about<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">MakeCode<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">&nbsp;back then. Why don\u2019t we review a little bit<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">.<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tell us what&nbsp;<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">MakeCode<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;is, how and why it came about, and where\u2019s it getting traction right now<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">?<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball:&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">MakeCode<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;actually started out of a previous project from Microsoft&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">R<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">esearch<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;from the&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">RiSE<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;group<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;called&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">TouchDevelop<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;and the idea there was very simple<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">:<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;everybody has these smart phones, but in order to program the smart phone you need another computer. Why can\u2019t you program your smart phone using the same smart phone? And Nikolai&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tillmann<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;had this great idea<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;and Michal&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Moskal<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;and&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Peli<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;joined in<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;and I came in a little later, and so we created an app to make it possible to write little programs that controlled your smart phone<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;but using your smart phone as the programming environment. And from that<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;we got to, essentially, a touch base<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">d<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;code editor that you could use a single finger to program with<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">.<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">T<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">he BBC<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;a few years later<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;had this idea of the BBC&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">micro:bit<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">. And this&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">is<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;a little embeddable computer that has its roots in the Arduino system, sort of a visible<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;printed circuit board with some flashing lights and buttons on it. And they wanted a programming environment that was web based to help take the&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">micro:bit<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;to all the fifth graders<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;or year seven<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;in the United Kingdom. And so we used&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">TouchDevelop<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;to<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;essentially<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;deliver that system in 2015<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">2016<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;and when we were code complete with&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">TouchDevelop<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;for the BBC&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">micro:bit<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">, we said<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;okay, we\u2019re going to create a compiler from the&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">TouchDevelop<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;system into the&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">MakeCode<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;system. We demoed it internally&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">and externally, this PXT, with the editor \u2013 the new editor \u2013 for the&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">micro:bit<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">and we got interest from the Microsoft execs as well, so they funded the&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">MakeCode<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;product group. So we have now some developers, on that side<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">, a<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;program manager, and on the research side&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Peli<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">, Michal, myself, Steve Hodges, now Teddy, who are thinking more about<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;what can we do with this platform moving forward<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">?<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;So it started with really simplifying programming for complex devices<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;and our first complex device was the smart phone<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">. T<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">hen we went to the BBC&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">micro:bit<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">, and now, with&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">MakeCode<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">, we\u2019ve expanded from the&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">micro:bit<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;to a number of other devices.<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">But these devices are generally battery powered<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">like your smart phone, but not quite as resource rich as a smart phone. They\u2019re much lower power and smaller.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: Well that\u2019s an excellent segue into what I want to talk to Teddy about next<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;which is using programmable technology, micro-controllers, in fashion. So tell us about your personal \u201chack the runway\u201d vision and how you decided to take high tech into fashion in what you&nbsp;<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u201c<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">haute tech couture.<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u201d<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Teddy&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Seyed<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">: The vision before I started<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"none\">I mean<\/span><span data-contrast=\"none\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"none\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">when I had emailed Tom and the&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">MakeCode<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;team was<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;you know<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;I had done a lot of work with Arduino and a lot of workshops with kids and designers and just a lot of time was not used optimally in the workshops and it was just becoming really frustrating so that\u2019s kind of how I came across&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">MakeCode<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;and that was really great. And then, during the internship, the vision that I had wanted, and sort of my bigger vision is<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;I don\u2019t really think a tech company should be making wearables, I think it should be coming from the fashion world. We should be providing tools for them to be able to create these things right? But in order for us to get there<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;we need to create something that designers can use&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"none\">and<\/span><span data-contrast=\"none\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"none\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"none\">like<\/span><span data-contrast=\"none\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"none\">&nbsp;if you think of them as developers<\/span><span data-contrast=\"none\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"none\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">we need to create developer tools, but these developers are fashion designers. And we can solve all this on the technical side and<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;in the meantime<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;when things are ready<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;and<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;you know<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;things are washable and stuff<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;they\u2019ll have that experience to be able to make things that we want<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">. T<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">hat\u2019s kind of the vision that I had\u2026<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: Okay.<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Teddy&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Seyed<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">: \u2026to start<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;anyways.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: I want to press in a little bit there because, to me, you\u2019re making developer tools but you\u2019re giving them to people that aren\u2019t developers\u2026&nbsp;<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Teddy&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Seyed<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">: Exactly.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: So<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;how does that work?<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Teddy&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Seyed<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">: That\u2019s<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;I guess<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;a little bit more on the HCI side\u2026<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">So,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;on the HCI side<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;you spend a lot of time working with designers, working with people that are not<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;sort of<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;technical<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;trying to figure out what their challenges are, how they\u2019re thinking about design, what they\u2019re thinking about fabrics and materials. So I spent a lot of time<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;sort of<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">before the internship<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;just thinking about fashion<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;really<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;and how that world works<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;and understanding the lingo. Because obviously<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;one of the biggest things is communication<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;where you have people that are super technical and people that are not technical at all<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;and bridging that world is very difficult, but one of the ways to do it is through communication<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">s<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host:&nbsp;<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">OK, l<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">et\u2019s say I\u2019m a complete neophyte. Do you have to teach me computational thinking\u2026?<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Teddy&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Seyed<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">: With the work that we have done<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;I typically don\u2019t start with technology at all. Actually<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;it really starts with what\u2019s the story you\u2019re trying to tell, right? Every garment has a story<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;it reflects the person wearing it<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;so what is the story you want to tell<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">?<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;Then from the story<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;it becomes<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;okay<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;what kind of technology can you use<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">?<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">S<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">o<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;for example, if you wanted to do a story around how you felt that day<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;then you probably want to use some sort of sensor that measures your emotion, right<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">?<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">T<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">hen we can talk about how to measure emotions. Then<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;after that<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;we can talk about where you would place the sensors<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;and then it becomes a question of where you\u2019re placing it on the body, how you\u2019re sewing it in<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">.<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">T<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">hen it\u2019s like<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;how do you want to power this thing<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">, r<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">ight<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">?<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">S<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">o there\u2019s sort of a narrative<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;but it\u2019s all starting from the story.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball:&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">And o<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">n the platform side<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;I think we have to have these components that can meet those needs and that\u2019s where the complication comes<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">. T<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">he designer might have something that\u2019s really not technically possible<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">. W<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">e can meet them halfway<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">, or say, these are the sort of things that we have in mind.<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;We might have a set of animations that are prebuilt that they can choose&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">from and parameterize<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;visually, not by programming<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;but by drag<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&#8211;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">and<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&#8211;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">drop menus, by demonstration\u2026<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: Right.<\/span><\/b><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball: \u2026but there would be<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">, um, you know,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;a more visual interface to start with<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;especially if it\u2019s a visual you\u2019re designing.&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">You know,&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">I think you also see that in the classic Visual Basic<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;the forms editing, you know<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">.<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Y<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">ou have people creating these forms applications who would drag and drop widgets onto the screen and there was the code behind.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: Right.<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball: And I think for a lot of domains, that sort of paradigm of having a visual editor with domain specific representations, in this case<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;it might be about the sensors<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;or the garment<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;or the lighting and the aminations, backed by code, the designer wouldn\u2019t necessarily have to edit themselves but&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"none\">it would be there, for&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">somebody else in the design<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">\/<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">production pipeline to sort of go and maybe tweak.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: So you\u2019re going to have to bring new people into the design<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">\/<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">production pipeline probably.<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Teddy&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Seyed<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">: Yeah.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball: That\u2019s part of what we\u2019re trying to do in the&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">MakeCode<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;system is to use Java<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">S<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">cript and Type<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">S<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">cript to program these embedded devices so that we have access to this world of web developers who know Java<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">S<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">cript for doing web pages, but may never have thought of using it for programming a fashion garment<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;but now they could use those same technologies for doing so.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: Let\u2019s talk about Project Brookdale<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">.<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">N<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">ow<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;this is why I wanted you two in the booth. It happened<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;not that long ago, but it was exciting enough for me that I started to ask, when can I get these guys on the podcast? So I could give a big run up for this, but I\u2019d rather have the two of you tell us about this research project. What is Project Brookdale, how did Microsoft Research get together with the Brooklyn Fashion Academy, and what were the results of bringing microcontroller technology to the atelier?<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Teddy&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Seyed<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">:&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">So, t<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">he nice thing about this project was<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;I don\u2019t think I could have done it anywhere else. One of the things I was trying to do in my grad school was<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;like<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;be able to properly build something and give it to fashion designers and deploy it on a runway and see what would happen<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;right<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">?<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;The nice thing about the runway is that it\u2019s a very practical way of teaching you about wearables<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;right<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">?<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;It\u2019s all the conditions of heat on the body, things breaking, people moving, things being packed, all the sort of crazy conditions that you would typically have to test for individually<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;you can get all in<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;like<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;sort of<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;this nice runway idea. And so when we came to&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">do Project Brookdale<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;it was really about<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;how do we make a system easy for people that are not technical<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">?<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">I<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">n this case<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;that audience was fashion designers<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball: And you had had a contact<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;I guess<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;with somebody in this fashion academy right?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Teddy&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Seyed<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">: Yeah<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;exactly<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">. A<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">nd I had contacts with the Brooklyn Fashion Academy already and so it just worked perfectly, the timing of being able to build the hardware and the software and going there and sort of deploying the system.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball: Right. And I should say on the&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">MakeCode<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;side<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;we had been working on this new&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">MakeCode<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">A<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">rcade<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;a game engine<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;and James Devine, who was another intern,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"none\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">started working with us in the summer of last year on&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">JackDack<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;which is a way to network together microcontrollers. So we talk about programming the microcontrollers with web technology<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;but how do you program a web of microcontrollers? Well<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;you need to be able to hook them up<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">.<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">A<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">nd originally<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;that was just to hook up two game machines so you could have multiplayer gaming<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;but then<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;when Teddy came along and said<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;oh, I have this fashion thing<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;we were like<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;oh, well maybe we can also wire&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">them<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;up on the body and have this easier way to connect together different microcontrollers that would then be part of a garment. And so sort of a plug-and-play, microcontroller-based<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;tool kit, to make it easy to prototype. And so&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">we,&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">in&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">MakeCode<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">, we had a bunch of new technology, Teddy brought the application<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;and then<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;we all brought it together. And it did come together<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">!<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">T<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">he hardware, the new software, the designs from the designers and this team in Brooklyn<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">in a last week<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;mad dash to the runway, it was an experience never to be&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">replicate<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">d\u2026 or\u2026<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Teddy&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Seyed<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">: We\u2019ll do it again<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;Tom!<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball: We\u2019ll do it again, but not the same way<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">!<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: Well, Teddy, tell us&#8230;<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball: Well, not to be forgotten, but not to be\u2026<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: Right\u2026<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball: \u2026not to be done in exactly the same way.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: Well<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;Teddy tell us a little bit more about how this instantiated on the runway.<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Teddy&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Seyed<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">: Yeah, so the theme of the show was the Herero women of Namibia<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">.<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"none\">S<\/span><span data-contrast=\"none\">o&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">the fashion was sort of influenced by the Victorian era style they had brought forward into the future. So each designer brought their own<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;sort of<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;theme and background into how they were using technology. So over a two and a half month period<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;rather than building every possible sensor<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;we picked sensors that were based off of their story. One of them had a really personal story&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">about fabric and mental health issues<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;so she had tears kind of dripping down her dress<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"none\">and that was one that Tom had worked o<\/span><span data-contrast=\"none\">n.&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"none\">Som<\/span><span data-contrast=\"none\">e<\/span><span data-contrast=\"none\">&nbsp;of them used motion<\/span><span data-contrast=\"none\">.&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">There was one really cool one<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;where<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">it was sort of a yellow fabric&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">where you had two lights coming down on the side<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">.<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">T<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">he Herero women always worked in the farms<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;and with cows<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;so he had this theme of<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">, sort<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;of<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;the women being strong like the cows<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">, and sort of<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;walking forward so there was a lot of&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">things<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;like that.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: Hmm.<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball: So Teddy did a lot of interviewing and there was education both ways about learning about the designs they wanted to create and then about the technology and the possibilities. So there was a tremendous amount of interaction in the lead<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&#8211;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">up<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;while we were scoping out<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;you know<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;the software and the hardware.&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Teddy&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Seyed<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">: Yeah<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">and&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">I mean<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;like,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;even the hardware, for example, we didn\u2019t design it<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">.<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">L<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">ike<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;the&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">B<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">rain<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;for example<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">is<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;round because it was going to be in the center of the body<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;according to most of the designs that we had worked with. And then things like the&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">B<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">eads we designed to be sort of&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">cylindrical<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;to the body so it\u2019s going to be placed on any part of the body. And then we color coded them because we wanted the designers to be able to use them without us being around. So you would know that red would be light, and<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">, you know,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;yellow would be environment and things like that. So it was very heavily driven by a lot of the work at the very beginning<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;just interviews and communication.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: All right<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;so this is both a research project and a runway project\u2026<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">What&nbsp;<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">were you findings<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">?<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">&nbsp;I mean I would imagine you came away learning a lot after you tried this with these&nbsp;<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">fashion designers and fashion design students<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">.&nbsp;<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">What have you come away with in terms of where you\u2019d go next with something like this?<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball: Well<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;I think<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;from the platform angle, we proved out some new technology<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">.<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">S<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">o the&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">JackDack<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;networking, the software, the ease of use of the plug-and-play and<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">and,&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">sort of<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;learning about failure conditions. Whenever you try to do a rocket launch, a lot of the rockets are going to end up not making it into space<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">and you learn from that. Similarly, with the garments, there were failures<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;and we learned a lot about power delivery, we learned a lot about the networking and<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;really, this was just a first prototype to get to the next step<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;which is to try to make a design that<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u2019<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">s more robust. It\u2019s a still a work in progress but you know, proving out the technology and understanding the failure modes was<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;I think<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;a major aspect. So<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;I\u2019m just talking from the platform.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Teddy&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Seyed<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">:&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Yeah, I mean, w<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">e didn\u2019t do as much programming with designers as we\u2019d like<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">. We didn\u2019t have time<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">.<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">A<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">nd it turned out<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;actually<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;maybe having a laptop&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"none\">to&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">code the garment is not a good idea. Maybe we should actually use a mobile phone, was one finding. One of the other ones was, you know, the audio jack&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">stuff<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;was really great for prototyping but what is it going to be like if we do wireless, right? I mean anything Bluetooth or wireless is kind of the ideal condition&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">for wearables but the unique thing about the runway is<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;it\u2019s so noisy, there\u2019s cell phones going, there\u2019s all these radio signals going around<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;so that might not be the best idea for that<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;right<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: Interesting. Okay.<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Teddy&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Seyed<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">:&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Doing some of the stuff more integrated into fabric is kind of the next phase too, so\u2026<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: All right<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">.<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">S<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">o all of this is available open source<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;am I right?<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;Uh\u2026<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball: So&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">MakeCode<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;is all open source, the software platform. The hardware that we prototyped for Brookdale is not available yet<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;but there are devices like the&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">micro:bit<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;and the Adafruit Circuit Playground Express that you can do similar things with that are available from our hardware partners.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: Okay.<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball:&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">So, t<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">here is a lot available already but not the actual Brookdale&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">B<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">ead and&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">B<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">rain<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;yet.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Teddy&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Seyed<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">: It will be coming\u2026 soon.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball: Yeah, that\u2019s the plan.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: It will be coming soon to a runway near you<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u2026<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;or someplace else.<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball: Yes.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: Well<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;let\u2019s talk about open source for a second&#8230;<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball:&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Mm<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">m<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">-hmm, yeah.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Host:&nbsp;<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">\u2026<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">because it\u2019s a huge trend over the past<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">..<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">.<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">&nbsp;I\u2019m going to guess a decade<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">,<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">&nbsp;but maybe more<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">?&nbsp;<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">What are the factors that have influenced this shift in your mind Tom<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;and why is it important to the broader software ecosystem<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;especially when it comes to research?<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball:&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Yeah, i<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">t\u2019s really transformative for the industry. I mean<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;every company has to think about what its secret sauce is<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;and its special value that it adds. And so much can be found on open source that can be used that you can then add your value on top of that. So<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;for example<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">MakeCode<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;uses two editors that we didn\u2019t have to create<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">.<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">O<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">ne is the text editor,&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"none\">code name Monica,&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"none\">which&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">is part of VS code<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">.<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">W<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">e just extract that component and use it. The visual programming with the colorful blocks is<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;from Google. It\u2019s<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;Google&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Blockly<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">. These are both open source. We\u2019ve actually made contributions back to, for example, the Google&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Blockly<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;code base, we have regular calls with them.<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;T<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">hat was unimaginable twenty years ago<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;when I joined&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Microsoft<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">.<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">A<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">s well<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;in research, it\u2019s great when a PhD intern, or any intern, is coming to Microsoft, they can see the project we\u2019re working on before they even arrive, they can have a much more productive three months, and then<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;after they leave<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;they still have access. So, contrast that to twenty years ago<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;where often<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;you know<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;people came in, they worked on something great<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;and left their mark<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;but then once they went back to the university<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;it was much harder to have access. And so I think just overall, people realize it\u2019s a win-win-win.&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">T<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">her<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">e are<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;still opportunities, obviously, for every company to choose<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">what they retain<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;sort of<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;behind their firewall which is their secret sauce, and I think every company does that to some extent. But I think there\u2019s been a realization for collaboration<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;for productivity, and for so many domains, it\u2019s much easier if you can see the code and be open from day one.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><i><span data-contrast=\"auto\">(music plays)<\/span><\/i><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: It\u2019s time for&nbsp;<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u201c<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">what could possibly go wrong<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">?\u201d<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;on the Microsoft Research podcast.<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball: Oh<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;goody<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">!<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Teddy&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Seyed<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">: Oh<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;dear<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">!<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: And at this point in the show I like to have a little conversation about the possible risks associated with innovative technologies that we showcase here. So<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;are there any concerns floating around in your worlds? Anything that keeps you up at night?<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball: Well<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;yeah<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;I\u2019ll go back to sort of the control aspect. I think that there\u2019s a real danger that we are losing control of the computing technology<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;and when I look at what\u2019s happening around the world<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"none\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">social media and the use of AI and all these computers on the edge that are going to collect all this great data, you know, there are great benefits to come from that<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">, b<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">ut as we\u2019ve&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">seen<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;risks, and<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">you know,&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">that\u2019s the sort of stuff that really, you know, twenty five years ago<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;when I was getting into industrial research, wow, I didn\u2019t really project that we would be where we are today&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">with,&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">sort of<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;wrestling with these issues around, really, are we in control of the computers<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">or are the computers in control of us?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: So what are you thinking then, I guess the better question is\u2026<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball: Well, my thought is\u2026<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: \u2026what are your people doing about it<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">?<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball: Well this is why I think&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">MakeCode<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;and things like education<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;CS education<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;are important.&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">P<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">art of what we\u2019re doing is making it easy to make this invisible fabric that runs our life<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;visible. Like<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;to talk about what is a computer, what is networking, security, and privacy? People need to become more educated<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;and starting at an earlier age<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;to understand, with age appropriate content, you know, what is it that this smart phone is doing for me<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">?<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;What are the&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">dangers in being out on social media? And how do I take charge of my data? How do I take charge of my programs? And I think we\u2019re still sort of in the infancy of thinking about that at a scale, and so I think the education is really critically important. And that\u2019s what we\u2019re&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">helping<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;to do through<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;I think<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;things like&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">MakeCode<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;and giving people the tools and the vocabulary to talk about computers and computing so they can be<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;just informed citizens, really, and they can help inform policy makers. So I really do think<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;you know<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;we need to start earlier so that the people become educated.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: Right<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">. D<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">id you address any of this when you were completing your PhD?<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Teddy&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Seyed<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">: I started working on it<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;sort of<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;towards the end<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;I guess. I had run this really cool little workshop in Nova Scotia with Kathy Snow from Cape Breton University<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;I think she\u2019s moved now.&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">And w<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">hat we did was<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;we just got girls and their parents, so the elders<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;as well, in that community<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;to basically make traditional indigenous garments with technology in them<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">.<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">A<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">nd you know, I took a step back in that workshop and it\u2019s interesting because I\u2019m usually the one leading it and so I let a couple of my friends, Angel and Alex, sort of run that workshop and<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;like<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;it was just amazing to see the difference that it had made for those girls.&nbsp;<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: These are huge questions and I\u2019m glad you guys are thinking about them. It\u2019s story time. As we mentioned at the outset<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;you\u2019re both working here at Microsoft Research but at different points along the career path. So tell us how you landed here, just give us a kind of short story of your journey to MSR<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">.<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">W<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">hat brought you here and why?<\/span><\/b><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball: I\u2019ve been in industrial research for twenty six years now, twenty years at Microsoft Research and six years before that at Bell Labs. Bell Labs was amazing, but I was thinking, well<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u2026<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;programming languages and programming tools<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u2026<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;where\u2019s the future for that<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">?<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">A<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">nd Microsoft was clearly the answer<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;for me<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">!<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;And so twenty years later<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;I have to say<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;that was a pretty good bet<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;and it&#8217;s still<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;I think<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;the great place to work on programming tools, programming languages, software engineering. But really<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;I decided I was a programming language researcher and<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;in around&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u2019<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">99<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;I decided it was time to sort of go someplace where that would be really valued for the long term.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: How about you Teddy?<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Teddy&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Seyed<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">:&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Uh, I mean, a<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">s I mentioned before I was always kind of entrepreneurial throughout the PhD<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;and then I came to MSR as the intern and I basically continued sort of in my entrepreneurial spirt and that\u2019s basically what sort of rocked the boat, for me kind of working here<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;and then obviously working with Tom,&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Peli<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">, Michal,&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Asta<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">, Steve\u2026 I mean everyone was just fantastic to work with so<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;yeah<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;I mean I really couldn\u2019t say no<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">!<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: Right, well let\u2019s go a little further on the personal aspects. Tom, I happen to know something interesting about you that I just learned like\u2026<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball: Oh<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;right.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: \u2026<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">forty<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;minutes ago, but is there anything that people might now know about you<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;and might not assume about you<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;that has influenced your life<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;or your career, Tom?<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball: Well<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;people know I have a really loud voice and I\u2019m prone to sticking my foot in my mouth<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;but,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;you know,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;it goes back to junior high where you could get out of one gym class a week if you did something in fine arts or singing. And I was like<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;oh my gosh<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;there\u2019s nothing I hate more than the gym locker room<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;so let me give it a chance in choir. So<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;I\u2019ve always had music in my background<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;and my parents were amateur musicians<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;and so<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;sort of a musician in computer scientist<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u2019s<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;clothing. I like to compose, I\u2019ve sung in the Seattle Opera&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">C<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">horus, I play some piano badly, I play electric bass in a rock band. I even composed a song about the&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">micro:bit<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;which is still under production.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Teddy&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Seyed<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">: Which is really good.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball: Which is, yeah<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">!<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">An<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">d then then we went to a conference in the UK and I worked with a band there to premier it at the&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">micro:bit<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;Education Foundation\u2019s first conference. So yeah<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;the music has always been something for me that is a creative outlet but also an inspiration for new thoughts and I\u2019m thinking of more ways to weave that into my research.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Teddy&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Seyed<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">: Soon.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball: Yeah<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">.<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">S<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">ooner than later.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: Teddy what don\u2019t we know about you?<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Teddy&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Seyed<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">:<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;Uh, I think I\u2019ve mentioned I\u2019m a huge comic book fan<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;right? I mean that\u2019s like my whole jam is comic books<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">.<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">T<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">hat\u2019s what\u2019s driven me on a lot of things that I make<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;especially Iron Man at the beginning.&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">H<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">uge Wolverine fan<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;because he\u2019s Canadian and he\u2019s short<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;kind of like I am<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">, right?<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">So\u2026<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;a<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">nd he\u2019s from Alberta<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;which is also where I\u2019m from.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball: Wait, wait, wait<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">, wait, wait, wait<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u2026&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">WHAT<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Teddy&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Seyed<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">: Yeah. Wolverine is my favorite comic book.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball: Yeah, but he\u2019s from Canada??<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Teddy&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Seyed<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">: Yeah, he\u2019s from Canada. He\u2019s from Alberta<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;in fact.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball:&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Wait, they\u2026 t<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">hey\u2019re that specific\u2026 wow.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Teddy&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Seyed<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">: Oh, yeah.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball: I had no idea.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Teddy&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Seyed<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">: There\u2019s a scene in one of the X-Men movies where he\u2019s actually in Alberta.&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">S<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">o I actually got into computer science through this computer animated show called Reboot which was from this company called Mainfram<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">e<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;in Vancouver,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;and it was like teaching you basic computer science concepts without ever knowing it. And&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">then&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">when I first got into university and was learning all this<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;like<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;computer science concepts I was like, oh, this is actually all the characters I loved in<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;like<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;Reboot<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">are actually concepts, so it made it real<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">ly<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;easy for me.<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;And that one, yeah\u2026&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">So<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;I really loved Reboot.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball: Hmm. That\u2019s awesome<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u2026<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: I\u2019m learning so much<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">\u2026<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball:&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">I didn\u2019t know that\u2026<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: I did not either!<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Teddy&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Seyed<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">: That\u2019s the point of it<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;right?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: At the end of every show<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;I ask my guests to share some parting thoughts with our listeners and this could come in the form of advice or inspiration. I think this whole podcast has kind of been that for me. Or you could predict the future<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">!<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball: Oh boy, definitely don\u2019t want to touch that one<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">!<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;No, I just wanted to say<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;because I didn\u2019t get a chance, you know, why&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">MakeCode<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">?<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;We<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">came up with that name<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;and I think it really ends up talking to the idea that<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;what is it you want to make? What it is you want to create<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">?<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">A<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">nd the idea of putting creativity first and&nbsp;<\/span><i><span data-contrast=\"auto\">then<\/span><\/i><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;bringing the computing and the coding into that context<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">. A<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;lot of times<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;when we lead with coding<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;I think there\u2019s a certain set of people who get turned off<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">. B<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">ut if we lead with making<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;whether that\u2019s making an art project, or music or a fashion garment, or you want to measure something about the environment to realize a better irrigation system<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">, y<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">ou have a system<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;you have a problem in mind<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;and the computing and the coding are part of that. So I think it\u2019s really good to think about domains and problems first<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;and then bring the coding in and support as just one tool.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Teddy&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Seyed<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">: I\u2019ll follow up with what Tom said<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">, thinking about domain.<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;I think<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;for future researchers who kind of want to do what I did in terms of entrepreneurship, I think the biggest lesson learned for me<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;was,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;at the beginning<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;I was probably more focused on the entrepreneurial side<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;and on business<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;I would say<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">? As, wh<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">ere<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">as,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">sort of<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;the last couple of years&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">was more<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;focused on impact, right<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">?<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">W<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">here<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;like<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;how can I go into community<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">? H<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">ow can I make change<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">?<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;You know<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;one way is going through&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">MakeCode<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;and using that in workshops in Nova Scotia or you know, working with designers<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">.<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">I<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">t\u2019s really about impact for me<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;the entrepreneurial side<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;so&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">emphasizing the impact of&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">the<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;things&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">that&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">are working and thinking sort of bigger picture is really important.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Host: Tom Ball, Teddy&nbsp;<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Seyed<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">,<\/span><\/b><b><span data-contrast=\"auto\">&nbsp;thanks! This has been so fun.<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball: You\u2019re quite welcome.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Teddy&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Seyed<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">: Thanks for having us.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Tom Ball: Yeah this was great.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Teddy&nbsp;<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">Seyed<\/span><span data-contrast=\"auto\">: It was pretty awesome.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{\"201341983\":0,\"335559685\":720,\"335559740\":240,\"335559991\":720,\"469777462\":[1620],\"469777927\":[0],\"469777928\":[1]}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><i><span data-contrast=\"auto\">(music plays)<\/span><\/i><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><i><span data-contrast=\"auto\">To learn more about how software engineering researchers are working to simplify the programming experience, visit Microsoft.com\/research<\/span><\/i><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{}\">&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Computer programming has often been perceived as the exclusive domain of computer scientists and software engineers. But that\u2019s changing, thanks to the work of people like Dr. Thomas Ball, a Partner Researcher in the RiSE group at Microsoft Research, and Dr. Teddy Seyed, a post-doctoral researcher in the same group. Their goal is to make programming accessible to non-programmers in places like the classroom, the workshop\u2026 and even the runway! On the podcast, Tom and Teddy talk about physical computing through platforms like MakeCode, a simplified programming environment that makes it easier for young people \u2013 and other computer science neophytes \u2013 to start coding with programmable microcontrollers. They also tell us all about Project Brookdale, where they did a collaborative fashion show that gave emerging designers the tools to embed technology in their garments and produce wearables you\u2019d actually want to be seen in!<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":39507,"featured_media":620697,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"msr-url-field":"https:\/\/player.blubrry.com\/id\/51809792\/","msr-podcast-episode":"","msrModifiedDate":"","msrModifiedDateEnabled":false,"ep_exclude_from_search":false,"_classifai_error":"","msr-author-ordering":[],"msr_hide_image_in_river":0,"footnotes":""},"categories":[240054],"tags":[],"research-area":[13560],"msr-region":[],"msr-event-type":[],"msr-locale":[268875],"msr-post-option":[],"msr-impact-theme":[],"msr-promo-type":[],"msr-podcast-series":[],"class_list":["post-620664","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-msr-podcast","msr-research-area-programming-languages-software-engineering","msr-locale-en_us"],"msr_event_details":{"start":"","end":"","location":""},"podcast_url":"https:\/\/player.blubrry.com\/id\/51809792\/","podcast_episode":"","msr_research_lab":[199565],"msr_impact_theme":[],"related-publications":[],"related-downloads":[],"related-videos":[],"related-academic-programs":[],"related-groups":[144812],"related-projects":[582649,427296],"related-events":[],"related-researchers":[],"msr_type":"Post","featured_image_thumbnail":"<img width=\"960\" height=\"540\" src=\"https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/wp-content\/uploads\/2019\/11\/Research_Podcast_Tom-and-Teddy_Site_10_2019_1400x788-960x540.png\" class=\"img-object-cover\" alt=\"Dr. Ant Rowstron and Mark Russinovich on the Microsoft Research podcast\" decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" srcset=\"https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/wp-content\/uploads\/2019\/11\/Research_Podcast_Tom-and-Teddy_Site_10_2019_1400x788-960x540.png 960w, https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/wp-content\/uploads\/2019\/11\/Research_Podcast_Tom-and-Teddy_Site_10_2019_1400x788-300x169.png 300w, https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/wp-content\/uploads\/2019\/11\/Research_Podcast_Tom-and-Teddy_Site_10_2019_1400x788-768x432.png 768w, https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/wp-content\/uploads\/2019\/11\/Research_Podcast_Tom-and-Teddy_Site_10_2019_1400x788-1024x576.png 1024w, https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/wp-content\/uploads\/2019\/11\/Research_Podcast_Tom-and-Teddy_Site_10_2019_1400x788-1066x600.png 1066w, https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/wp-content\/uploads\/2019\/11\/Research_Podcast_Tom-and-Teddy_Site_10_2019_1400x788-655x368.png 655w, https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/wp-content\/uploads\/2019\/11\/Research_Podcast_Tom-and-Teddy_Site_10_2019_1400x788-343x193.png 343w, https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/wp-content\/uploads\/2019\/11\/Research_Podcast_Tom-and-Teddy_Site_10_2019_1400x788-640x360.png 640w, https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/wp-content\/uploads\/2019\/11\/Research_Podcast_Tom-and-Teddy_Site_10_2019_1400x788-1280x720.png 1280w, https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/wp-content\/uploads\/2019\/11\/Research_Podcast_Tom-and-Teddy_Site_10_2019_1400x788.png 1400w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 960px) 100vw, 960px\" \/>","byline":"","formattedDate":"November 13, 2019","formattedExcerpt":"Computer programming has often been perceived as the exclusive domain of computer scientists and software engineers. But that\u2019s changing, thanks to the work of people like Dr. Thomas Ball, a Partner Researcher in the RiSE group at Microsoft Research, and Dr. Teddy Seyed, a post-doctoral&hellip;","locale":{"slug":"en_us","name":"English","native":"","english":"English"},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/620664","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/39507"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=620664"}],"version-history":[{"count":10,"href":"https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/620664\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":896328,"href":"https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/620664\/revisions\/896328"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/620697"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=620664"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=620664"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=620664"},{"taxonomy":"msr-research-area","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/research-area?post=620664"},{"taxonomy":"msr-region","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/msr-region?post=620664"},{"taxonomy":"msr-event-type","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/msr-event-type?post=620664"},{"taxonomy":"msr-locale","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/msr-locale?post=620664"},{"taxonomy":"msr-post-option","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/msr-post-option?post=620664"},{"taxonomy":"msr-impact-theme","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/msr-impact-theme?post=620664"},{"taxonomy":"msr-promo-type","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/msr-promo-type?post=620664"},{"taxonomy":"msr-podcast-series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.microsoft.com\/en-us\/research\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/msr-podcast-series?post=620664"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}